2008 Gulf Steam Tour Master - Right choice?

[David Bott]

Hi All...

My wife and I are new 2008 TM owners. Our first RV and we went big. I guess the question is, and this is of course one sided, is did we make the right choice? We were also looking at the Revolution and are wondering if we went the wrong way now. We have reasons for thinking this way and they all have to do with the quality control.

I guess maybe we have remorse, maybe we all have at one time, but for a new RV, boy was the quality control out the door. :( We are finding so many things right down to stripped screw heads to even screws just laying around. Some right though the wall sticking out the other side. We are very concerned and contacted GS Monday and still waiting for answers.

Here was our first trip. Complete with two stops at tire shops to try to fix wheel balance. http://rv.bott.net

We need some reassure here! AUGH!!!!!

David

[David Bott]

Well the GS customer service rep is very nice, and we are going to be working though the issues with the RV. So that is good news.

However, it does not help the fact of a new RV with so many issues. Here are just a few that should never have left the plant....

Top kitchen drawers would not open for the top would hit the hinge. They actually had to sand down the side of the drawer. (BTW...Great that the drawer can hot the door in the first place. It makes for some nice marks in it.)

The pantry would not slide out as the bottom shelf was put in to low and it also then would hit the bottom mount and thus could not slide out. (What, no once checks these things?)

Screw to hold a wall in place was right though the wall coming out about 1/3 of an inch. How did we find it? Only took one catch of a leg. (BTW...3 of them in total)

Center channel speaker was not hooked up and was damaged when put in to the point of the speaker being ripped! My guess is the person who did the damage left it unhooked so you could not hear the issue. Hello...Not being on would also make you look. BUT IT WAS STILL PUT IN!!!! (BTW...Surround sound in an RV is a nice idea, but really does not work when the screen is not centered with the center speaker. Even worse when you use the pop up set in the living area ;))

The driver seat had very little back support to the point that the leather was just loose. Arm rests were also not right with one even lower than the other.

We found no less that 16 various screws laying around. Two in the couch!

Cargo area has paint on the rails that did not take, has come off, and is now rusting. Note, we have not even used the area.

Speaking of the cargo area, we had the fresh water take empty out into it as the drain line was too tight and when we went over a mound entering a park, it pulled right out of the bottom of the tank when the rig flexed. All the water drained into the basement. Good thing we hand noting in it.

We had two of the basement doors open on us while driving even though locked. The hinge was not set right and when the RV moved or twisted just right, it was enough for it to open. Two doors both separate times! One opened upward (The inverter area) and the other outward, cargo area.

We STILL have a tire balance issue. Brake Drum? Tires?

All in all their are more items, but just trying to find out if this is something to expect from any new RV or did Gulf Stream really drop the ball on this rig? Was it built the day before a holiday? Was their a strike going on? No idea. But what we do know is we are not impressed so far with the quality control. It makes us fearful of the future.

We are thankful however that the CSR is supportive and helpful, but that does not excuse what we are going though. We should be enjoying ourselves, yet we feel put out for the RV now needs to go into a ship to start repairs. How long? No idea.

So, is this normal? Could we have had the same issues with another line? (I am guessing yes.) But still....Who is responsible for the quality? When you spend money like this, you really would think you would have something that someone took pride in building. We were sold on the Tour Master over the Revolution based on features it had. It also had a nicer price point, but does that now come at a cost???

Thoughts? Help? Anyone?

Thank you.

[lockdoc]

David-

It is a bit late to ask if you made the right choice but here is what I know: Sit down for this one as it is good........ALL rv's will have some QC issues. None are exempt from it although some dealers do a better job than others to get it ready for you!

IMHO your dealer let you down! The way the industry works is the mfg turns out the product as well as they are equiped for and then they ship to dealers to do the final walk through fux ups that they missed. It is like the dealers are the finish carpenters to building a home....their area of responsibility is to make it not only fully workable but pretty too.

Give the dealer a chance to make it right as they dropped the ball in missing the things you mentioned.

It is not right....but that is the system most rv mfgs have in place. I have seen similar issues in my FIL's former coaches: Winnebago Elandin, Newmar Dutch Star and now Monaco Knight!

[Texas TC]

Listen to lockdoc. It is my experience and I have even been told this by the dealer that the QC and finish out items are left to the dealer. I have heard that as much as 10-15% of the final work can be finished upon delivery. It is sad that they work that way but my dealership handles Winnebago, Tiffin, Damon, and Gulf Stream and all are the same way.

After finding this was the case with the first coach we owned (Four Winds Fun Mover), I selected a dealership less than a mile from my house to buy my Gulf Stream SuperNova. Although I have not had the issues you noted, the few items I have had have been repaired to my satisfaction and I can check in on the progress daily by walking up to the dealership.

Good luck with your adventure and remember, these things are a combination of your car/truck and your house. You probably did not have problems with your vehicle but if you have ever built a house (I have built 3), the punch list can be pages. Just work through it and you will suddenly have memories and stories to share while everyone tells their RV stories around a campfire. I promise, everyone has them.

[rdlamb]

We all have a lot of choices in RV's nowdays. I went through a similar contortion, did I choose correctly.
My friends own a Revolution, one an Alfa Gold, several Newmars from the Dutch Star to the Essex.
All have had their day in repairs, breakdowns, and quality issues. Overall, I'd venture that Newmar is better at quality.
But, our TM has been marvelous. Give it a year, get the bugs out, then watch out because you will find yourself cruising all over the place, having fun.
So, IMHO you chose correctly.
Safe travels,
Rick

[David Bott]

Hello All...

Ok, so I have learned that the RV industry is, well, strange. After all, they build the RV, the dealer sells it. I would expect that the build would be something of pride and not left to the dealer. I would expect the dealer to do a final clean up before delivery, but would not have expected what I have found thus far.

But seeing you all, who have had MUCH MORE experience than I at this, say this is the way it is, then so be it. (yes, weird as it may be. :))

And Lockdoc..."It is a bit late to ask if you made the right choice" LOL, you are so right.

I have also noticed one other thing now that we have stopped at a few places. I have yet yo see another Tour Master. But I will say that we are the largest thing I have ever seen come down the road in upstate NY. :)

Also, correct, I should have maybe bought at home. But where I live is not the best RV market as you may guess. (As mentioned, upstate NY) Camping World is as big as it gets and they do not carry Gulf Stream, for as they said, "Too many issues". I was kind of taken back by that but thought it must have been something else busniess related.

I ended up looking around, I found a used Revolution here, but as I continued my search came across the Tour Master. It was in Jacksonville, FL at Dick Gores RV World. A 2008 pre-emission M330 T40B. It so happened we were going to Orlando in two days for a trade show. So we rented a car and headed to Jacksonville to see it and only spent one day at the show vs 2. After seeing it I could not find a way to consider the money they wanted for the 2006 Rev. So we bought the TM. Fly back two weeks later and here we are. BTW...Got 8.7 MPG on the way home. :)

So their you have it. REALLY new to this stuff. Had NO CLUE about how this worked, but do now. BUT I still do blame the factory for the fresh water drain line being to tight, the speaker that should NEVER have been put in, and some other things that really should have no excuse. (IE, the opening basement doors! Heck, thats a safety thing!)

So we are off on our adventure.

(Side note...Thanks GS for the HD sets, but you wired the RV all COMPOSITE!!!! It can not carry HD from say a Blu-ray player or even a Hi-def sat box. Even the DVD system you have in it can do COMPONENT video, but you did not run any wires for it. Even the switch box can do component video, but you did not run it. You only ran Composite video and left and right audio. Now how am I to run the correct wires or even a SINGLE HDMI cable???? BTW....I will be installing a front projector that will project onto the privacy screen. It is great that it just drops down and is white!!! Then even the surround sound will be correctly placed. ;))

[Elise]

And we thought we were the only ones with quality control issues.... In our 2008 Independence, the living room slide was not adjusted correctly, so the first time we opened it up, it scraped the linoleum floor in two places! It's not so much the laundry list of repairs/adjustments that have to be made, it's the long, long wait to hear from Gulf Stream as to how they want us to proceed. (The pull-out couch that was supposed to come with it was substituted with a jackknife couch. Still waiting for the resolution on that one,)

[GStream40]

David,

I had to laugh when I read about you wondered if you made the right choice of the Revolution or the TM when you stated that cargo doors came open on your TM.
Last year when the DW and I test drove a Revolution at Lazy Days I turned onto I-4 with the Revolution and a compartment door came flying open. :lol:
The salesmen stated that it probably needed the latch adjusted when I pulled over and he jumped out to close it.

It is true but sad that the RV industry is in the shape it is in and that we all put up with it.

Ron

[David Bott]

Ron:

I guess it is the state of the industry, you are right.

I am really amazed it is like this to say the least. If I ran my business like this, it would surely fail. I would think that someone would care to take PRIDE IN WHAT THEY BUILD. Even more so when you are talking about something of this value. (Then again, people should take pride in what they do in any regard.) Doors opening SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN! This is 100% a safety issue.

Elise:

Well we dropped off the rig yesterday to have the list started. The rep at the shop said..."Well, we will get started on this as soon as we get the OK from Gulf Stream. However, please be aware that it could be several, several days before we hear from them." Again, if this is the case, it is 100% uncalled for. But we will see for I had been working with the GS CSR and sending photos to her before I brought it in. She said she was already setting up the OK's. I really hope this happens.

David

[Texas TC]

Tell your shop to use email with GS, it seems to get faster response than a phone call to them for some reason.

[djqualls]

"The driver seat had very little back support to the point that the leather was just loose. Arm rests were also not right with one even lower than the other. "

My right side is higher than the left. Why is that?

[David Bott]

"My right side is higher than the left. Why is that?"

No idea. Mine were both down toughing the seat more or less not usable at all for an arm rest. Yet the other set was just fine.

Who made these seats anyway. Can not find a tag on them that really says. (Reminder... Tour Master T40B)

[rdlamb]

Mine were made by flexsteel.
Seem to be great quality. But, both are the 6 way electric adjustable.
Perhaps there are different manufacturers based on the seat's functions.
Safe travels
Rick

[djqualls]

Mine is Flexsteel as well.

[David Bott]

Yes, 6 way adjust on ours also. Even a foot rest for my wife. :)

No where on it can I find FlexSteel. Not even on the tag that I needed to find and send to GS. (They were not sure either LOL) They said that sometimes they need to change manufactures as products run low so they need to get them somewhere else. But they still were not even sure from the tag I sent them.

[rdlamb]

Let us know how things progress through GS. We are planning on being at the Rally this June, and will look at the seats if we get a chance.
Should be an eye-opener to actually see the factory and meet the staff.

[Maggie]

Rick,
I feel sure that you will get a chance to look at the seats at the
Back Home Rally. I also think it might be an eye opener. The factory tour is nice and most of the staff are very helpful. But, most of all I think you will have a great time and get to meet some great owners of Gulf Streams. We have gone for many years and feel like we really are going home.

[David Bott]

Yes, very much looking to go to the rally. Just trying to get them to call us back about the GS Club so we can sign up. As a new owner is comes with a 1 year membership if I recall correctly. Just ca not seem to get this done and sign up before it is too late.

[Maggie]

David,
Contact Jennifer Shaw, membership coordinator at [email protected]. She will be able to take care of you.

[David Bott]

Yes, she gave us a call. Not waiting on the welcome packet and then we can get registered for the little get-a-way. :)

Looking forward to seeing other TM owners as we have not yet seen another one in 6 parks. :) Looking to hear about their new RV stories as I really am shocked by the QC or lack their of.

Want to stand out, do something others are not doing. Take pride.

[vernon07]

It has been my learned that dealerships will not typically put a lot of time into final repairs as they are not making money for their time. Once you purchase the unit and make a list of ever item they can go back to the factory and have it covered under the manufacturers warranty. Most dealers run between 90 to 125.00 an hour. As you can see they want to make all the money that they can. I hope that helps a little as well as far as the delivery process.

[David Bott]

Well I must say that the time it takes even to get the OK to fix something is very very poor.

Our NEW Tour Master has been at the shop now for a week and 2 days and NO WORK has been done yet on it as they do not have the OK's needed to do said work.

THIS IS A NEW UNIT....IT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DELIVERED TO US LIKE THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE FROM GULF STREAM!!!!! (I DO NOT FAULT THE DEALER...I FAULT GULF STREAM.)

Be it the way the industry is does not make it right. Gulf Stream, stand up and be proud of what you make. Be different by actually caring what comes off your line. So far, I have not even gotten a sorry out of GS.

Yeah, yeah, I have heard that it is like this for any manufacture. DO NOT CARE! It should not be plain and simple. Why just be part of the crowd when you can stand out from it???

When a speaker is put in EVEN THOUGH IT IS DAMMGED, that is not right.
When a screw is put though the wall in the wrong place and it comes out the other side, that is not right.
When a cargo door open while driving, that is not right. (Two different doors mind you.)

It goes on and on. We can not wait to get to the Back Home rally so we can actually get to see the GS people that build these and ask where the pride is. Or maybe we just try to get in to see the man himself.

We have not been able to use our new RV at this point.

The best thing so far are the nice people we have met on-line here.

[RJ82much]

David,

You are very frustrated, & I don't blame you. Perhaps an immediate trip to the factory will help you. You are in New York state, so you could make a mini vacation out to Nappanee, IN, camp in the free factory campground, take the factory tour, & most importantly, meet "the man" & perhaps get your unit either run thru the production line (as mine was) or have their on-site service facility do the necessary work.

To assure you get the attention from the factory that you deserve, you need their permission. I wouldn't ask, I'd notify them of your expected arrival date & see what happens. Contact me at [email protected] or PM me for some more detailed specifics.

Oh, I wanted to jump in earlier about your seating discussion. If the armrest does not have a Flexsteel badge on the armrest, it is NOT Flexsteel. GS has been using another (cheaper) manufacturer for a couple of years which in my estimation is plain junk. We were all set to buy our unit based on the previous year's demo (with Flexsteel).... While waiting for the signing we walked into a current year model that had just arrived. We had to cancel our closing until they agreed to install Flexsteel in our coach. They tried to charge us more. The wife & I were furious, & stated so. We packed up our papers & left the dealership offices. They "caught us" in the parking lot to talk a little more. We are probably the only 2005 Sun Voyager coach that got Flexsteel seating. I cannot envision driving for hours in the seats they currently install. My armrests match.

[David Bott]

I am sorry for coming off like this. But I am actually shocked by all this. I know some of you have said this is the normal. But it should not be nor should we be expected to accept it as so.

I do want to go to the factory, but I have no unit at this point. I guess we can go get t back and drive on over. We feel like just leaving on their doorstep with a bill of sale back to GS.

They should be ashamed. Any company/manufacturer should be if they let things like this off the line.

Thus unit was purchased for two reasons. 1) For my wife and I to live life by seeing life. And 2) It was to be used in a national road tour for AVS Forum covering 2 month with 16 stops for meet and greets. (Expected 100+ people at each stop.) You see, I operate the largest on-line audio video forum site (Like this forum for example...But very big). We were going to do an meet and greet learning tour with possible sponsors such as Samsung, Yamaha, Sony, Microsoft, etc in 2009.

I know we will love the traveling, but the rig is an unexpected issue now for us based on we can no longer trust the build quality. More or less now have some fear.

David

[David Bott]

Here is a case in point.

These two images are of the driver side right by the hot water tank. It is the last part of the molding on that side coming up from the back.

The molding is UP 1/4" vs the middle of the molding and the panel below it does not even fit the coach! According to the repair center I have it at, it is short almost 1/2" under the molding as the panel was not made right. When the molding was put on, it was not put on level which exposed the issue.

IT WAS EVEN PAINTED LIKE THIS!!!!! No one, but on one, said, "hey, this is not right."

http://www.bott.net/rv/SideIssue1.jpg

http://www.bott.net/rv/SideIssue2.jpg

And no, the molding did not just move up. It is attached like this and even sealed in place. If you look, if you move the molding down to hide the whole, the paint would no longer line up. (Thus the mention about it even being plaited like this.)

[David Bott]

Remember I had mentioned the center speaker? Well here it is.

http://www.bott.net/rv/Center_Speaker.jpg

This is the speaker that is in the center of the 3 in the front. Note the bent casing and even the rips in the cone suspension. IT WAS INSTALLED LIKE THIS! Not only was it installed, one lead, the white one, was not even connected! (My guess is so you did not know it was damaged for it would not play.)

This is what I mean. Items like this LEFT THE PLANT! Why or why would someone put in something so clearly damaged? (Guessing here, they did it and did not want to have to tell someone and thus get into trouble.)

If this little thing was like this, what big thing may we be in store for? What is this was a HOT wire for example?

[coolchas11]

We've been away in our TM. No major problems this trip. However, I do agree with David. How do these things leave GS? The issue shouldn't be other manufacturers or the dealers. These are quality control items and someone isn't checking or there isn't a "someone." When we took the plant tour the guide explained the acceptance or "purchase" system from one department to another. Looks like no one really cares if so many problems can get thru the line.

[David Bott]

Update...

Well, just so those following along, we still do not have the TM back and it was only last Thursday I heard from the VP of Operations at GS.

Very nice, was very concerned and at this things are not moving forward to getting started on the repairs. I still think we should not be where we are. A NEW coach being fixed. Yes, I have heard it before, this is the way it is. But it should not be. Simple as that. That is my message. I am sure we will get the couch and start to enjoy it, but the message is the same.

I will be at the Home Coming Event if anyone wants to meet and maybe try to come up with a way GS can become of a better company. Lets face it, you can not beat the price point. But that does not mean the build should suffer. It is a pride thing!

I am set to be on the round table talk, but then I read it is not the place to talk about problems. Well, I think it should be. GULF STREAM, you DO NOT want people talking about the issues on an open site like this. I wonder how many people found this site, and this thread, that were considering GS and moved on. I hate to think that would be the case, but what are we to do?

READERS CONSIDERING A GULF STREAM COACH...

You can not go wrong for the price point vs other similar floor plans rigs. That is one reason we went with GS. We also went with GS because our dealer, Dick Gores RV World, who are GREAT GREAT PEOPLE spoke highly of them. The reps I have reached on the phone of GS have been very nice. The VP of operations was very nice. I see no reasons the issues we have will not be taken care of. As you have read, it was about the poor build process that has made this a sour issue for us. Would me buy GS again, yes, based on price and ONLY after looking at the rig closely for build issues.

One other concern now...Even though they list GS service centers, I found out that a service center DOES NOT HAVE TO SERVICE YOUR RIG. I was actually told I was lucky that the dealer in my area is doing the work as a lot of dealers will not service you unless you bought from them. I was shocked by this and lucky I guess. Augh!

David

[edited for corrections.]

[rdlamb]

David:

We plan on being at the back home rally, will look you up then.
How did you post pictures on the site? I made changes to my coach that others have wanted to see, but I was not savvy enough to post a picture.
Hopefully, everything will get fixed, and you'll travel long and far in the TM.

As for the "factory" issue, you are correct. No one can argue that the coaches should leave the factory with few, if any, defects. Reality, however, it just doe not happen. Not even with new cars or even new houses.

One way to help correct this is, IMHO, is to get the problem in front of the person empowered to change the system. Me thinks you've done that.

[David Bott]

Hi...

I have not seen many cars like that. Homes, sure as their are always pick lists. But this is on a line. Different than home building IMHO. The issues we have run into should not have come off the line. I should have the use of our coach, but do not. In fact I was just told today that it will be at least 2 more weeks before I may get the coach back.

As far as images. You need to put the images on a web server somewhere and then make call to that image using the [img ] tag. Most ISP's offer some space on a server for it's users. You make the call to the image like this in a post...

[img ]http://www.SITENAME.com/IMAGE_NAME[/img ]

...but remove the space in I added in the brackets. Hope this may help.

[rdlamb]

Thank you, I'll try posting an image to a web site and copy it to the message.
As for cars, I meant that some defects are so glaring that anyone looking at it should have stopped that vehicle in production and recycled it.
Hope all works out for you with the coach.

[David Bott]

In regards to image posting...Here is a great reference on our site about it....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=853110

[rdlamb]

Thank you David. I will try the process.

[David Bott]

Update...

At this point all the OK's have been granted to the service center and work has begone. I am still about 1.5 weeks away from having the coach back.

But at least it has once again turned cold in upstate NY. :)


Seat Update...Found out the seats were made by Scope (if that is right.)

[David Bott]

Update 2....

Just to follow up, NO PARTS have yet been received to the service center per an e-mail received on Friday from the service center. Note the date of the above post when we were told all was approved. Yet no parts.

I must say, I am just amazed. Yes, great value point, but I am sorry, there is NO EXCUSE FOR ANY COMPANY not to take care of the customer. Even more so after it was approved for service.

I still stay that Gulf Stream could capture the market based on price point, but service and support needs to be a PRIORITY. Customer service goes a long way. Actually the longest when it comes to repeat sales and referrals.

(Note, called into my GS Rep on Friday, no return call.)


Needless to say this...(From the GS site)

http://www.gulfstreamrv.com/images/gps-house.jpg

...is more or less meaningless.

How long ago did I start this thread (4/9)? We STILL do not have our NEW coach.

[gsadmin]

David, check your PM, I left you one.

[David Bott]

Thanks for the PM note. :)

Just yet another update...Maybe, maybe, will have our coach back mid next week. Still waiting one some items. One of which is a simple DECAL!!!! How hard is that to send out?????

I would have really liked this thread to go a better direction as I had high hopes for the coach we bought. We still love the floor plan and some of the items used to make the coach, but it is the build that is the issue here. It is the worker not taking any pride in what they do and the company not caring to look into correcting it. (So it seems)

Reminder...CARGO DOORS SHOULD NOT OPEN WHILE DRIVING WHEN THEY ARE LOCKED (or even unlocked but latched)! Get my point about someone not caring enough to check alignment of something they installed. You know, if an accident would have occurred based on the door opening, who would be looked at for a major player in a lawsuit? Hello Gulf Stream, WAKE UP and check your people before something does happen.

Sorry, just frustrated. I am sure once we get it back we will start to enjoy our travels. But at this point we will alway be concerned is a screw was not put though something it should not have been.

[David Bott]

Yet another update...

All orders parts are still not in. Still missing the driver seat and a decal. I can understand the driver seat, which I was told was on the way, but I can not understand the decal.

Get the order, walk over, pull one off the shelf, send it out. It was ordered two weeks ago.

Gulf Stream can WIN this market in every way. They use fine items and quality items in the coach, but they fail in the labor end of it being installed and with follow up customer service issues.

The first issue can be helped some, but here in the US, people seems to have lost pride in what they do. It also may come down to the pay rates and working/training conditions. But it can be resolved.

The section part FOR SURE can be corrected and is the MOST IMPORTANT part of ANY busniess. Service of the customer. This goes the longest way in not only free advertising, but keeping a customer.

GULF STREAM: Look around...This is not the old days when they only way people compared notes was at the camp grounds. It is the day of INSTANT feedback. You want POSITIVE items and people defending you on-line. As such, customer service is the #1 thing. You drop the ball, people will know about it and it WILL impact future sales. Lets impact those sales in an upward motion and not down. You have the power to do so. Just take care of the customer.

For me, over one month now without my NEW 2008 coach. Take a look at this thread count...it is the largest one on the site. Why? Because people looking to purchase GS are reading. As such, not a good read other than the reasons I selected GS.

GET OUT OF THE OLD WAYS TO SUCCEED!!!

Thanks

(edited to fix typos)

[gsadmin]

I think it will take a flushing at the very pinnacle of GS leadership for this paradigm to ever change. When dealing with old-school industries, sometimes the old-school senior management sticks around far too long. This has happened in the auto industry of America as well and is only now beginning to show signs of change.

the fact that this is a private company also makes them less prone to want to change since they do not have to answer to the shareholders who if this was a public company would be reading these posts, looking at the business growth and market share and putting 2+2 together and then demanding change. Not the case here...its a family business.

After years of this site, if they haven't understood the internet communication and customer feedback movement yet, i doubt the current management ever will.

The first signs of them understanding it will be them creating an Internet Communications position in their marketing department that is the Voice of Gulfstream online (and offline) and the conduit for information from the factory. This person would have an account on this site and be there as an advocate for the consumer inside Gulf Stream as well. They would have the same autonomy as a IA department in the police. Smart companies have moved this direction. But, they must stomach the airing of dirty laundry (to an extent) and sometimes NOT have all the right answers. In the end, this is OK, because even us demanding consumers realize that companies are made up of people, who are fallible, its how they account for their faults and attempt to turn things around that we will remember ultimately

Once again, Gulf Stream, I hope you listen to me...I know what I am talking about (we on this site know)...I have been online and in business on the internet for 13 years and this is my day job (not this site, but rather I have a senior leadership position in a company whose business building the best tools and services for helping companies capitalize on the business of customer and employee engagement).

Let US help GS...

[coolchas11]

So how do we help GS? Charlie

[gsadmin]

Continue utilizing this site, and giving feedback.

Then, if/when you encounter GS brass (C-level or VP-level), encourage them to have someone respond out on our forum. Tell them at the Rally back at the factory how much you love using your coach, but that like anything else, its not perfect. And, that you would love for them to participate in our forum to answer questions so we get the facts straight from the horses mouth.

This site helps GS, we help GS, now they just need to be shown what they are missing out on.

[David Bott]

I very much know the impact people have on sales and companies. You see, I run the largest on-line Audio/Video website and can tell you, what people say make a difference. But what makes a bigger difference is what the company does to support the consumer.

As mentioned it is not the old day of you needing to find someone to ask about something. In this case, an RV. Now they go looking and find places like this. As such, customer service and support now have become the key to a company like never before.

I hope when we get to the Back To Home really next month that I may be able to talk to someone at GS that actually understands this.

I want to see GS succeed like never before. But it all starts with the service.

[bill6357]

I just joined this forum yesterday, and I'm already reaping the benefits. I'm currently having an electrical problem, which is being addressed in a seperate thread. I wish I had found this group sooner. I had serious issues over the last year with Gulfstream. My dealer has solved all but this last electrical one, but it took a letter to Brian Shea, one of the two Presidents of GS, to get the ball rolling. I thought I was alone with a "lemon" I had no idea that there were so many of us with issues. Here is the letter I sent:


Dear Mr. Shea March 12, 2008


I find it necessary to write in order to inform you of an unfortunate series of events. I have tried using every possible means of resolving a problem with my motor coach, but find myself considering legal council. That is a situation I would like to avoid.

In July of last year, I went to my local motor home dealership, Commack Trailer, to pick up my 2006 Ultra for my planned cross country summer family vacation. I had no intention of buying a second motor home, but while I waited for my coach to be brought out from the shop where it was being serviced, my wife and children were looking at a 2005 Sunvoyager labeled "demo, priced to sell" Before I knew it I was the proud owner of a second Gulfstream motor home. Serious health issues cancelled our trip and I wasn't able to use my new coach until January of this year.

When I bought the Sunvoyager, I was made aware that it was not new, but had only 1700 miles on it and had never been lived in. My dealer, Bob Merchwart, explained to me that he personally used it for trade shows, but it had been stored outside and I should expect problems related to that. After a quick drive around the area, I felt that the brake system should be looked at, it just didn't feel right. Bob suggested that I drive it a bit more, since there was most likely rust on the rotors, which would cause problems. A quick overnight trip left me with a list of things to have looked at, none too serious except for an indicator light on the antilock brake system and a few electrical problems, with indicator lights going on and systems not working. I left the coach at Huntington Chevrolet, the local authorized Workhorse repair shop. I was told that I needed to replace all the batteries. The batteries were not holding a charge and improper voltage was possibly causing computer problems. It sounded reasonable. The dealership had problems tracing some wiring and a mistake was made involving a solenoid controlling the 12 volt system. I took the coach home to prepare for a trip down the coast to Florida. When I tested the hydraulic jacks, the solenoid wiring started to burn. A panicked call to Bob Mrchwart was followed by a quick fix at his shop. Huntington Chevrolet assures me that they will make restitution for the error. I left the next morning and drove without incident to Florida. As I arrived at my destination, the antilock brake indicator lit up. Needless to say I was upset. I called Gulfstream and was given the phone numbers to several dealers who should be able to help. The diagnosis would mean that my vacation would be trashed while the coach was in a shop. One of the repair centers suggested that I just ignore the indicator until I returned home. After all, it was the antilock system, not the overall brakes. The odds of skidding were remote. I agreed.

That night, a fellow camper knocked on my door. "One of your tail lights is on and has been blinking for a while." I tried, without success to figure out why only one tail light would be on. I decided to remove the bulbs. As I unscrewed the tail lens, the superheated bulb melted through the housing and fell into the body. I discovered that the same thing had happened on the other side. Meanwhile, other lights began to turn on and off sporadically. I disconnected the batteries and pulled fuses. I was unable to find anyone willing to look at the coach where it was. With another vacation cut sort, I drove home to New York. During the drive, My wife and I made a detailed list of symptoms. That list is attached to this letter. I brought the coach back to Huntington Chevrolet. That was the second week of January.

The service manager at Huntington Chevrolet assured me that he would give my coach his personal attention. A few days later, I was informed that both Workhorse and Gulfstream would not consider any of the work warranty covered. A phone call to Workhorse explaining that the vehicle was only recently put into use changed their mind. They agreed to cover the chassis through April of this year: more than enough time to discover the cause of these wiring problems. I made a similar call to Gulfstream. Workhorse called Commack Trailer and verified my explanation as to the origin of my coach. They immediately authorized repair work to the brake system. Gulfstream continued to deny responsibility when contacted by Huntington Chevrolet. My calls to customer service were never followed up on and I have yet to receive a call or letter explaining your decision, if in fact one was made. I wrote a letter to customer service, and still no response. I called two more times. The representatives were pleasant, but could give me no answers.

Hunting Chevrolet claims that the wiring done when the coach was built is at fault. Will you please address this issue so that we can continue a good relationship? I do not want to involve a lawyer, but I will not be mistreated any longer.

[coolchas11]

You are being extremely fair and reasonable. Hopefully, Shea will assure that the issues will be corrected. Charlie

[David Bott]

UPDATE...

WE GOT OUR 2008 TOUR MASTER BACK TODAY!!!!!

YES! It is here and it only took about two months!

AUGH, AUGH, AUGH, AUGH!!!!!!


Almost two months to get things done. I can NOT believe it.

THESE WERE SMALL ITEMS FOKES!

[trickto322]

In a time when the american consumer cannot find anything that is made in the USA we have one of the few things made here. What does that get us? We have a very espensive show of BAD WORKMANSHIP. It is a shame that we have to beg to have our investment made right. It is a shame that we have to "pick" which manufacture makes the fewest mistakes. It is a shame that we have lowered our standards. We can go to the Mars but we cannot make a motorhome that works 100% when you pick it up. I'm sorry I went off but some days it just hurts to hear what some of us goes through.

[David Bott]

Hi All..

We are here at the Gulf Stream "Back to Home" rally and are working on getting the coach fixed up. We still have a number of issues and this is the reason we really came to the really. To get them resolved by speaking to the right people.

Well it seems we have have made a great contact to get things done and I give him the list. He made some calls and we SHOULD BE getting some results while we are here. Here is the list.

Shimmy above 45. (Appointment on Wed with a Freightliner center 20 miles or so from here.)
Drivers Side Mirror shaking
Tighten slide awning as it hod water.
Look at front Living Room window. (need replacement pane)
Slide out bulb seal on left and right of coach. (They are compressed)
Check seals on basement doors are water gets in.
Check alignment of basement doors as they have come open 4 times. (Major safety issue)
TOUR MASTER logo on the front replaced.
Driver slide out safety switch replaced as the wire is pulled out of it.

Also I am getting some work done by Hart City...

42" Ceiling Fan in bedroom.
Fantastic Vent added into bathroom. (Standard fan now.)
Self leveling system installed. (Manually one in the system currently.)


Also would like to send a HELLO out to those that have stopped by to say hello after reading my thread here. Thanks as you made us feel welcome.

We also found out we are not AT ALL alone with the issues right from the factory that are factory made issues based on quality control not being their at all. Each Tour Master owner we have spoken with thus far are not happy with the work. They love the coach, but not the issues.

I will let you know how things go by weeks end as we leave here on Friday and thus all must be done by then.

David

[coolchas11]

Dave, thanks for the update. We, too, had issues with our TM, but got most of them fixed in CT. Hydraulic system was repaired in VA and minor items at GS where you are now. Charlie

[rdlamb]

Dave:
Wow, what a list. I wonder if GS is watching.
What type of fan did you install in the bedroom, 12v or 110v? I am considering a similar move, but do not know if the 12v fan/light combo will be better than a house ceiling fan.

Thanks for the updates.

[David Bott]

Wow...Sorry I missed the replies.

Yes, FYI, I am still working on the ride issues. I am writing this from yet another shop that is doing an alignment and also some "fixing". It seems that some items just were not "tight" and had play in them. Also getting installed the Bell Crank from SuperSteer as the one on our coach is, well, BAD!!!! It has just over 4000 miles on it!

So, we will see after they are done how it drives and tracks. It has not been enjoyable to say the least driving it.

Ceiling fan...12V is what I had put in. It does help in the bedroom. Would I have gone with a larger one? Not sure. It does not move air and the air is does move helps. But a larger one may have been nice. Also, clearance may be an issue with a larger fan, not to mention looks. (I did not research them, so not really sure as I did not even think 110v.)

So, in a few hours I will know more about my steering and next week get back out for a quick trip.

David

[David Bott]

UPDATE....

Ok, had more work done on the Tour Master...Not sure where I left off, but it has new Koni shocks, a new SuperSteer Bell Crank, 2 new Goodyear front tires replaced under warranty, Two new rear inside steel rims as the other were bent out of round (yes, not kidding), and now all the tires have Equal balancing in them. (Yes, also alignment)

In any case, even with all the work, we still have vibration issues starting at 50 MPH.

So, what are w doing now? Traveling to South Carolina to visit the Freightliner Service and Training Center. We are leaving Upsate NY on Tuesday and stopping by a dealer in North Carolina on Wednesday to look at a few issues. Then on to our appointment with Freightliner for 8:00AM Thursday morning.

So...We will see if they can handle the issue. If they can not, well, we will be seeking a new coach. But they seem to think they can handle the issues where others could not. We have to at least try.

Well, more to come as this continues to unfold. :)

[Elise]

Well, our list of quality control issues just gets longer and longer, since Gulf Stream is so terrible about responding to either us or our service dealer about authorizing some major problems with the coach (one of which is a refrigerator that was installed contrary to Dometic's specs and without any insulation). So now I'm filing a complaint with the Better business Bureau. Interesting to note, (and I wish we had done this before making our purchase) that Gulf Stream has an unsatisfactory rating with the BBB of Indiana, with 34 complaints filed in the last 36 months.

We've been told parts we need are on order, only to be told later that they were not yet authorized to be ordered. We've been told parts are on their way, yet nothing arrives for weeks. We've been told our GS customer service rep is "checking with his supplier" and then later told they need our service dealer to call them yet again. (Our local service dealer has displayed unending patience in dealing with GS, calling and emailing them on a regular basis as they wait for authorization to begin work on any one of the number of incorrectly installed or missing components of our coach.) Our customer service rep. seems to be on vacation, or the factory has been closed down for a hiatus, or we leave messages and emails that take days, sometimes weeks for a response, and then it only seems like a stall technique as we are passed to a new rep. or told a new excuse, and "the parts are on their way." We've been waiting for a silly exterior light cover since May!

[David Bott]

Just and update that due to a family illness we needed to postpone our trip to Freightliner.

I will update as we proceed with our coach issues.

Thanks

[RayChez1]

Yes, welcome to the RV world and I do agree with you that the QC on all these expensive toys is a lot to be desired. But I don't think I have seen the perfect company yet and we have been RVing for many years. A good dealer is very important in correcting what is called shake down problems. I think you will like the Gulfstream TourMaster. It seems to me like a good coach. When we bought in 2003 they did not have the TM, but we bought what was the top of the line then, which was the Scenic Cruiser. My wife and I just love our coach, but we did have some shake down issues when we first got it. Since the issues were resolved I have not had a problem in the last four or five years. Now I had a coachmen before and I only kept it for six months and I got rid of it. I had lots of problems with the slide motors, so it happens with just about every coach I can think off. I do most of the work on my coach now. I even change the oils and lube the chassis. It is easier then what most would think.
I think you made the right choice on the TM.
The only thing I wish I had gotten a forty foot instead of 38', larger is always better. :wink:

[David Bott]

Hi All...

I just wanted to say we are still around. Thanks for the PM's of concern.

We have not been able to travel this summer based on some family illness as mentioned. We hope to head down to Freightliner and then on to Florida this October for a few weeks. Really still need to get the steering looking at and have all the underside checked out.

All in all, the biggest news is that we built a pole barn to store the TM in, and it was, get this, just to short as they built it up for the floor instead of going down. Good thing the concrete was not pored and I told them I wanted a test run.

Why was it too short? Hummm....in all the docs I have from GulfSteam and on their site, it read 12' 6" ride height. NOPE! 12' 10" is more like it. When I called about it they said, well you have a sat dome, that's the issue. To which I replied that the TM comes STANDARD with the sat dome. As such, would it not be included in the spec's??? Augh!

So to be much safer, I ordered a new King Dome 12" to replace my 15" KVH. Hey, 3" is 3". ;)

All in all, out adventure continues. ;)

Take care all. Will be back in touch.

[David Bott]

Hello All...

Well we are here in Gaffney and wanted to give you an update.

Taken from our rv blog...(No need to type it twice. :))

Well we are sad to report we are now starting day 2 at the Freightliner Service Center in Gaffney. Yesterday they replaced the drive shaft, did an alignment, changed the ride height and put on a vibration sensor in hopes to see where the issue is. Well, none of that really did anything. The sensor pointed at both drive train and tires...so more or less inconclusive.

So they put the old driveshaft back in as the new one had no change and readjusted the ride height. Today they are now looking at dismounting and remounting/balancing all six tires. They will also look at each rim and tire to be sure they are, well, round.

Oh, I need to mention these have to be the cleanest service bays we have seen.

We are supposed to get a down pour of rain later today, or as they say here a ?Gully wash?en ?, so we are hoping they can resolve the issue so we can get out before the rain hits.

BTW...I must say that it is a sure pleasure to be working with a company like Freightliner that truly put?s customers first. Everyone we have dealt with here in Gaffney have been outstanding. From senior management to the service center reception, it is just a breath of fresh air. The techs are polite and take care to listen to what you have to say even asking follow up questions. It is companies like Freightliner that others should strive to be like. If and when we may look for another coach, we will be looking for the Freightliner logo. (And we say this even without the issue being resolved as of yet as they are just that caring.)

More to follow when we have something more to say on this. Otherwise we would just bore you with note about us sitting in the waiting room and watching people play cards. (Yawn)

Take care, keep safe.

[David Bott]

Just a quick note we are ON THE ROAD and have SUCCESS with the fine team at the Freighliner Service Center in Gaffney! After all that was tried that was mentioned on the last page, all six tires and rims were replaced just to see what would happen. Well, as fate has it, WE ARE SMOOTH!!! The ties are now the Michelin RV tires and they are slightly larger.

So even though it was close to 6 PM, it really wanted to get on the road. So we headed out for 1 hour and ended up in a Super Wall-mart New Berry, SC. This is the first time we did something like this and we must say, we were kind of nervous. :)

Oh, one thing that did happen this morning when I was setting up the coach to leave and was checking the Saturn Outlook we tow. Well, when I shut the door, they all LOCKED! Yes, only keys we had for it was in the car. I called On-Star and POOF they unlocked the doors. But we were not sure that would work for we do remove a fuse from the Outlook when we tow it.

So we are heading out now to end up in Jacksonville.

[lockdoc]

David-

Congrats on the smooth ride!!! It is about time someone figured it out for you and you deserve the smoothness under your wheels.....have fun!

[RayChez1]

Just a quick note we are ON THE ROAD and have SUCCESS with the fine team at the Freighliner Service Center in Gaffney! After all that was tried that was mentioned on the last page, all six tires and rims were replaced just to see what would happen. Well, as fate has it, WE ARE SMOOTH!!! The ties are now the Michelin RV tires and they are slightly larger.

So even though it was close to 6 PM, it really wanted to get on the road. So we headed out for 1 hour and ended up in a Super Wall-mart New Berry, SC. This is the first time we did something like this and we must say, we were kind of nervous. :)

Oh, one thing that did happen this morning when I was setting up the coach to leave and was checking the Saturn Outlook we tow. Well, when I shut the door, they all LOCKED! Yes, only keys we had for it was in the car. I called On-Star and POOF they unlocked the doors. But we were not sure that would work for we do remove a fuse from the Outlook when we tow it.

So we are heading out now to end up in Jacksonville.

David, I have been following your thread for awhile now and am glad that Freightliner solved the problems.. I have heard nothing but good things about the Freightliner shops in Gaffney, so it is good to know.
I was just wondering, what brand of tires did you have on the coach that were bad. You mention that you have Michelins now, what was on it before?

[David Bott]

So sorry for the delay. I did not receive the thread update notice.

The tires were the Goodyear RV tires. I had already had two of them replaced on the front before I got to them. These new ones are larger and make for a GREAT ride. I had to have the speedo reset for the larger tires. BTW...The TM looks much better IMHO with the larger tires. The others just looked small for such a large coach. :)


So...NEW ISSUE! We got home from our 2 week trip and as I was washing the coach so I can store it a few months, I noticed the entire main living room slide had dropped one inch!!! It is now lower than the bottom molding when retracted. Thus of course total messes up the paint lines and is now pressing on the cargo doors below it.

Called Gulf Stream as I wanted to bring it to them (8 hours away from us). Their service center is closed until February. So I am now waiting for response as to where they would like me to bring it.

You see, in March I need to take the coach to Orlando for 2 weeks for a trade show where the TM will be seen by thousands as we will be using it for a internet broadcast of interviews with manufacturers. As such, I need to get this repaired before we travel to that event.

At this time I am awaiting a reply from GS.

Someday we will use the RV to just go away...But currently our travels have been service center related for the most part.

David

[RayChez1]

Have you tried the dealer where you bought the coach? When my coach was new I had a slight problem with one of the slide guides making a squeaking noise while we were driving down a road in Florida. I called Gulfstream and they checked to see what shop was available that could fix it. They sent me to a shop in Wildwood, Florida called Covenant. It is about a mile away from the big Monaco shop. Fact it used to be the main Monaco shop before. When Monaco absorbed Safari coaches they had so many problems with cracks on the beams that they had to open a bigger shop to take in a bunch of coaches. Anyways I took my coach to Covenant and they realiened my slide. They also replaced the whole seal on the big slide. I have not had any problem with my coach in about four years now. Knock on wood! :)
I am not sure how the TourMaster slide is configured, but it sounds like a guide might have gotten out of adjustment or might have broken. Lot of dealerships will work on problems pertaining to slides. I think I would try them before I drove all the way to Nappanee, Ind.

[David Bott]

Hello...

Well, my dealer was Dick Gores in Jacksonville. So that is kind of out. :)

I am currently working with Gulf Stream to get into a dealer in PA. 5 Hours from us or so. We do have a dealer 45 mins from here, but we used them once and well, put it this way, it did not go over well. (Figures)

[rdlamb]

David:
You said you replaced the Bell crank, with a Super Steer model?
Is the factory Bell crank not sufficient?
I've heard something about this, from another TM owner, but did not find any recalls or other messages from owners that the factory bell crank is not sufficient for the TM.
Where did you purchase, and install said crank?
Nice follow-through on your posts.
Thanks

[David Bott]

Hi...(Sorry for the delay, I am not getting my notices about thread updates. :()

It is not needed, it is just a differnt type. It using barrings vs compression. Seeing it uses barrings it moves more freely and take less effort.

You can find more about the product here...

http://www.ssrvowners.com

Bell Crank...(ss100 model)

http://ssrvowners.com/uncategorized/sup ... nk-arms-2/ (http://ssrvowners.com/uncategorized/supersteer-bell-cranks-bell-crank-arms-2/)

http://ssrvowners.com/uncategorized/ss100-bell-crank/


I also HIGHLY recommend the SuperSteer Motion Control check valves. It is Night and Day!

http://ssrvowners.com/uncategorized/sup ... ol-unit-2/ (http://ssrvowners.com/uncategorized/supersteer-motion-control-unit-2/)

As far as install of either of these products, their are dealers where you can just purchase them, or buy direct, and any truck shop should be able to put them on. (even Camping World sells and installs)

Take care.

[RayChez1]

I think all motorhomes have Flexsteel furniture. Now as to the arms on the drivers seat and passenger, they are adjustable. On the front of the arm is a button that you pull up and adjust either up, middle or down.

[rdlamb]

Thank you for the info. Will be back in Oregon this spring, and will look into both the bell crank and steer motion devices.

[David Bott]

I think all motorhomes have Flexsteel furniture. Now as to the arms on the drivers seat and passenger, they are adjustable. On the front of the arm is a button that you pull up and adjust either up, middle or down.

Sadly this is not the case. GS chose to switch to a "cheaper" seat in their flag ship coaches. They use to be Flexsteel, then they changed, go figure. They are VERY POOR SEATS that we have.

[wdawsonsr]

I have a response to the level of quality control & design on the Tour Master. This is our 4th motorhome. I have always figured when buying new you might as well figure it will take a year to get the bugs out. Our last motorhome was a 2004 Fleetwood Discovery (our 3rd Discovery). We purchased the coach in AZ. By the time we got home to NH we had 24 items on our "punch" list. I thought this was terrible. But I contacted Fleetwood & faxed them my list. They responded with the name of the nearest dealer & all was well within two months. In the winter no less.

We now live in Albany, OR. We purchased our 2008 Tour Master T40F at an RV Show in Eugene, OR on 1/26/08. Our first trip to CA the first of Feb gave us a list of 61 items. Such things as windshield wipers stalling at full extension when travelling in moderate to high winds. It's really nice when you're driving at night in driving rain/snow mix on a two lane road. when we arrived in the first town we found that the door on the water manifold bay had popped open. Duct tape to the rescue. After arriving in CA I found that the door latch was not adjusted properly. Using some washers from my toolbox I was able to position the latch to that it stays latched. Gulf Stream would not authorize aligning two other doors.

To date the windshield wipers still stall & lift from the corner of the windshield, even after a new motor. The pop-up TV lift has never worked properly. Since last April we have been having water remain on the 28' Slide-out roof when retracted. Wiper seals have been replaced. Our dealer in Coburg, OR went out of business last Nov. Since the first of the year Gulf Stream had us take the coach to a dealer in Portland (90mi). It has been there 3 times so far. Yesterday I went to pick up the coach. As the Tech was about to go over the repairs made. I noticed a small puddle of water on the dining table. I immediately checked the light fixture. Sure enough, as I jiggled the fixture a steady stream started to flow out of the slide-out ceiling. Last Nov this happened the first time. I had to remove the fixture. A 20q pail was fiiled twice in a two day period. Needless to say, I didn't bring the coach home from the dealer yesterday. There were many quality control items througout the coach. Our first dealer, Paradise RV, took care of most of them. The ceiling of the big slide has sagged at least 1" or more in the center over the dining table. Johnson RV in Portland jacked the ceiling up & installed a 10' long steel angle behind the wood facia with Gulf Stream approval. However the roof of the slide-out sags between frames allowing water to pool when you bring the slide in which allows water to come down the drivers neck the first time you hit the brakes. Gulf Stream doesn't even supply beach towels for the front & rear of the slide to catch the water.

There are a lot of features we like, namely the two bathrooms, Freightliner chassis & Cummins engine. I'm very unhappy with factory responce. At the beginning I requested plumbing & wiring diagrams. I was informed they do not give these out. My guess is they don't have a clue how it was wired or plumbed. It probably depends who was on the floor at the time the coach was built. When I contacted Fleetwood they provided the schematics within a week. This was on used '97, '99 & new '04. So far the coach has been in a shop for 3-1/2 months total. Twice at 1 mo at a time. Yesterday I tried to email Aron Druesdow but it was kicked back. I called the factory today & left a voicemail with service.

I would like to here from some of you with your experiences.

[RayChez1]

I must be one of the lucky guys, I guess. I had some issues when the coach was brand new in 2003, but hey were all handled at the dealer where I bought the coach. And they were all handled either the same day, no more then two days. Knock on wood, but I have not had any trouble with my coach in the last four and ahalf years. Actually it runs and handles better now that it is broken in then when it was brand new. I don't have the TourMaster, but I have what used to be the Flag ship in 02-03 and that is the Scenic Cruiser. I have not called Gulf Stream in years, but at that time they were very responsive to issues.
Now I notice you mentioned Fleetwood coaches. I have friends that have Fleetwood coaches and they have basicly the same problems everybody else has. Fact Fleetwood claimed chapter 11 today and will have to reorganize and they might go belly up just like Country Coach, Monaco and others. We are lucky Gulf Stream is still holding on and that is because it is a family owned business that does not depend on wall street.

[11B]

wdawsonar, I bought a 2007 and on the few issuses I had was handeled in short order by the factory with no complaints. I delt mainly with the western region sales manger at GS who has since been laid off. But he has been relaced by another rep whos name I don't have but number I do, may I suggest you call HIM at 800-289-8787, ext. 3734 and chat over your problems. It would seem to me GS would want to handle your problems.

Good Luck and let us know if this works for you.

[wdawsonsr]

Many thanks for your inputs. Just a few minutes ago I left a message for Brian Atkinson the Western Regional Sales Mgr. He is the one we met when we bought our unit. A few months later I tried to call him. A new person answered his extension & told me Brian was no longer with the company. A couple of weeks later I was informed that person was no longer there. Now apparently Brian is back?

It's just hard to believe once coach could have so many problems. If it weren't so far to Indiana I would be at the factory in a heartbeat. I like to think we are making progress. I just talked to Johnson RV & they think they have tracked down the source of the leak in the slide-out ceiling & are now contacting the factory for recommendations.

Thanks again

[David Bott]

Hey All...

Yes, we still feel the pain that was mentioned above.

Our 2008 GS T-40B is again at a shop for more issues.

1) The entire driver side center of the coach has dropped down. The main slide about 1", the cargo doors, the hot water tank door flexing out.

2) The wipers, like above, stopped working in the open position.

3) The front end A/C Thermo switch stopped and thus no front end A/V while driving.

4) The master slide front window needs to be replaced.

So, it is in the shop about to be torn apart looking to see why the side had dropped.

All in all we will love of Tour Master as soon as we can really use it without to much worry. Responses from GS as of late are S L O W! I have sent in a few e-mails now for some information on our coach and have received no response. Simple thing like... What version Freightliner frame is it on? No response.

I also AGREE...Give us the dam wiring and plumbing layouts!!! This is a MUST to have in case you have an issue on the road and need to maybe trace something on your own. To not supply the is a total dis-service.

From the number of views of this thread...5219 and counting (Largest in this sites history :))... it is clear that their is an interest in the Tour Master and I would think that GS would really want to keep that good foot forward.

BUT HEY!!! Thanks to the GREAT, and I man GREAT, people at Freightliner, we can now drive the coach nice and smooth without shaking the driver side mirror mount screw out so the mirror was not usable. (Yes, it was THAT bad. It was not fun to drive.)

Take care all.

(Side note...I do not get to respond to this or my PM's as I would like as I do not get the thread or PM notifications as the e-mail address the board sends from is not correctly formatted and is refused. Thus I forget to check in.)

[David Bott]

Just a quick followup...

It seems that the drive side sidewalls had dropped down because their are nothing holding them in place. The only thing holding it was the glue/silicon for the molding that covered the upper and lower seams. Thus over time and vibration, is slowly moved down and out of place.

The service center fabricated brackets that were then screwed to the steal framing and then epoxy was used to bond it to the outside wall. (Or something like that.) In any case, the show not slide down any more.

What was suppose to hold them in place? No clue. I still have not received a call back from Gulf Stream in over 2 weeks. So much for the Gold Program.

Looking to get back on the road mid April and head down to the Keys for a few weeks. But first I need to get the coach ready again after the winter. This is but another first for us. :)

Take care all.

[rdlamb]

Hi David:
We also have a TM, thus am interested in your problems personally, as well as wanting to help whenever I can.

Do you have the full side, slide model? What "slid" down? Our coach has not had any problems with the exterior siding sliding down, but I need to know what to look for.

Thanks, and Kudos for getting the thing fixed. By the way, with Monaco, Country Coach, and Marathon all going into bankruptcy, it looks like we chose well.
Rick

[David Bott]

Hi Rick...

Sorry for the delay as I still do not receive e-mail about posts being made to the thread as the address used here is not a fully qualified one.

In any case, it was the panel to the left of the hot water tank door. Not only did that panel slide down, but from that point forward under the lip of the slide also did. It started to just touch the cargo doors under the slide.

We are suppose to get the coach back next week as the window that was sent in did not fit. Yes, you read that right. We also needed a window and it seems that the manufacturer that made the window went out of busniess. Gulf Stream has a new provider, but the windows are thicker and as such, the ring around the window that holds it in, is to thin and will not work.

So now they are trying to get a ring that will work. You would THINK that Gulf Stream would have a clue. After all, they knew what was being replaced, our coach was built and should have sent ALL THE NEEDED PARTS! But nope...at this point it has been 3 days of the service center just trying to get someone who knows what they need. ("What do you mean it does not fit?")

Oh, I have a T-40B which is has the front slide that stops at just before the bathroom.

[rdlamb]

David:

You sure have put up with enough bad things without driving your coach up someone's keister.
I am amazed, and now worried, that the side panels are glued on. I sure hope this is not true.
My coach is the T40D, two slide. I wanted the bed to face the front of the coach. My phobia is to be able to look straight down the coach to be sure the noise I heard was not something bad.

All told, however, the TM has been a wonderful coach. Thanks for your reply.
Rick

[David Bott]

BTW...

Though all this with the driving issues I did find some great products. The best one was this...

http://supersteersuperstop.com/uncatego ... ol-unit-2/ (http://supersteersuperstop.com/uncategorized/supersteer-motion-control-unit-2/)

These are SO GREAT. Very night and day difference.

Also... I just though of this...maybe the cause the panels to sliding down was the shaking issue we had for so long until the great people at Freightliner helped. That the vibration was so bad it would actually loosen the drive side mirror. I would have to stop to tighten and finely added lock-tight to the threads.

[wdawsonsr]

Rick & David:
I am greatly interested in your post about trials & tribulations. I have 08 T40F with a 28' slide on the driver's side. Right now it is in the shop in Portland, OR going on it's 5th week there. We have been fighting water leaks in the slide since last April. I just got off of the phone with the tech in Portland. He tells me the slide is totally dry. We had two water problems. Water was getting in the ceiling of the slide & draining out of the Dining light fixture to the tune of a couple of gallons of water in 24 hrs in constant rain. The other problem which occured first was standing water on the slide when it was retracted. This was caused by two problems. One was the ceiling frame had sagged about an inch above the Dining table. The other was the wiper seal was not wiping the slide roof dry. After reenforcing the ceiling frame with a steel angle iron & installing a larger wiper seal the tech says it has no standing water. They found the slide roof panel had unsealed at the outside wall. That has been resealed.

Another problem from last February is the headlights will not stay adjusted. It seems the upper part of the headlight assembly has no support. I believe the fix was to fiberglas something to attach to to for support.

The last item to be resolved is the windshield wipers stalling at full extension in moderate to high winds. Supposedly this is a linkage timing problem but the tech is still waiting for a return call from Jim Creech at the factory. Lack of factory response has been a major problem since day one. Not a good way to run an airline in my book.

David. I enjoyed your website with pics & adventure tales. We lived in northern, NH for 35 yrs before moving to Albany, OR 3yrs ago today. Seeing your garage makes me yearn once more for the 30'x48' heated garage we left back there. Oh well.

I should know later today is we can pick up the coach tomorrow.

Regards,
Ed Dawson

[rdlamb]

Hello Ed, and welcome to the forum.

We bought our coach in Colburg, from Paradise RV. I understand they are out of business. To bad, as they had a shop manager who really cared, and a tech who knew his business.

Do you have slide awnings?
I believe the light fixture is on the ceiling of the slide, so water has to penetrate into the ceiling in order to run out of the fixture.

Are you receiving good service from your dealer?
Inquiring mind, I know, but we occasionally make it back to Oregon.

Oh, Colburg has a great Freightliner and Cummins shop. You can get your coach serviced at the local truck stop as well.

[David Bott]

Hi...

Also welcome Ed.

Yes, we also have the wiper issue and that is also to be looked at while they have the coach. Some dealers we have found are great when comes to some things, and really slow down when it comes to others.

Dick Gores RV in Jacksonville is outstanding in each regard. While up here in upstate NY...The service center has no issue with body work, but dang, when it goes to the little things, humm...it is days. (Thermo switch replacement, check for an oil leak on the generator, fix the wiper issue.) Items that would be like maybe 2 hours. The coach has been out of the body shop from last Friday, a week ago today, and yet they still have not been able to do that list of other work/checks.) (well, putting the window trim issue aside they could have still got the other items done.)

Our main slide has the slide awning over it when it comes out, as all do. Seeing the slide is so long, not as long as yours with the T-40F, when it rains, it collects water on the awning. It is tight, but still drops in the middle. As such, when we bring in the slide, we need t0 go SLOW and let the water poor off the front and back. Go to fast and it may come into the coach and or really get the side of the coach wet. (Think waterfall.)

It is one of my pet peeves as the roller it rolls up on too week and bows in the middle. Can not tighten it more as then it bows more.

Glad you like our trip blog. We travel again on April 13th as long as I can get the coach ready. LOL

[wdawsonsr]

Rick & David, thanks for the replies.

To Rick: Paradise closed their doors last Nov. I was notified by Lance Larson the Service Mgr. Manny was their super tech. He was knowledgable & fast. As I look back, starting about July the service was starting to slip. Too much work & not enough manpower. It's too bad they had to close.

Yes the slide has an awning. One annoying issue in regards to the awning is that being so long there is no way it can be kept taut. Originally in moderate winds the rear part of the awinging would flap, annoyingly loud. The last time the awning was re-installed the front is loose. It's just the way the end springs are tensioned. Even with the awning it doesn't take much of a breeze to drive rain under the awning & collect on the slide roof. Once the ceiling frame sagged it was impossible for the wiper seal to squeegee all of the water from the roof as the slide retracted. While Paradise/Gulf Stream were discussing the issue for months, I got to the point that I would the inflate the air bags & retract the leveling jacks. This gives the coach a port list. This got most of the water out but not all of it. Then before moving we would roll up beach towels & place them at each end of slide roof. For me this issue is inexcuseable. Having spent 25 yrs designing high vacuum chamber systems it isn't rocket science trying to keep water out.

Another major issue has been the Power Gear electric Jacks. I've lost count, but I think we have had 6 jack motors replaced. Two have been at the same position. They tell me all is well now but we have not had the coach in use enough to know for sure. I know I hold my breath everytime I extend or retract them. I like the action of the jacks over the hydraulic jacks I've had in the past. Time will tell on this one. Early on I had weighed each wheel when we were fully loaded so I would know how we were balanced. As expected, we are a little heavier on the big slide side but the weight difference is reasonable. The jacks are rated for 12000# & my heaviest wheel is 9800#.

David, how is your coach when driving in cold weather? We were told that ours has the Artic Package, whatever that is. Anything less than 45? outside air temperature is uncomfortable to downright cold. Paradise added some additional sealing on the back side of the dash but when I look around the generator everything is wide open. At highway speeds this has got to have a severe cooling effect on cockpit area.

We are supposed to get the coach back today but when I talked to the tech late yesterday he was still waiting to hear from Jim Creech for instructions on wiper linkage adjustment. I told him I don't want it back until the wiper issue is resolved. It's now 10:30AM & I haven't heard anything so my guess is I'm not going to Portland today.

Safe travels guys,

Ed Dawson

[rdlamb]

Ed:
As far as cold weather, we wound up staying longer in Montana than we wanted, family urgency required it. Got down to -10. Snow, blowing, downright cold. Coach furnaces ran almost continually but kept the coach warm.
Left Montana in wind, funny how it always seems to be a head wind. The front end stayed warm. So, overall, our coach is doing well.
Left a post in the Hall of Fame, outlining where and what we have been through, but overall we are happy.
Did want to use Lance's and Manny's names, in case someone had a different opinion than me. Knew Paradise was not going to last, last Spring when we stopped by. Things looked bleak then.

[wdawsonsr]

Rick:
Your cold weather experiences are really good information. Did you have any extra heaters in the utility bay or water manifold bay? The coldest temps we have seen was 18? in Sun Valley last fall. I put a wireless thermometer in the water manifold bay which includes the water pump & inlet filter. It registered 42?. I talked to Jim Creech at Gulf Stream yesterday questioning him about why the front of the coach is so cold. He said he had no idea. I feel a negative is the plastic dash & front panels. I looked online & saw pictures of an '07 TM. I like the padded dash but the best part in my book is the overall layout. I personally do not like the '08 cockpit layout. Being a private pilot & ex-owner operator trucker, instrument scan is foremost when driving. A real bummer is the ignition key being on the lower left of the panel. Ala Freightliner COE trucks in bygone days. There it was convenient as you could stand on the ground & start or stop the engine if need be.

We go to Portland Monday to pickup our coach. It wasn't quite ready Friday early afternoon. They want to wash it before I pick it up. This is really a nice gesture. They did the same last time.

Jim Creech called me yesterday morning after having talked to the tech at Johnson RV about timing the wiper linkage. Jim was very positive & friendly. That's a first but I hope that any future factory contacts will be the same.

I really appreciate your's & David's responses. Very enlightening.

Thanks,
Ed

[rdlamb]

Ed:
I thought about it, but decided to just run the propane. Our coach has heater lines into the compartments, and I thought they would keep everything from freezing, which they did.
I bought a heat tape at Home Depot, along with tube water-line insulation. Taped the heat tape to a short length of hose, then covered it with the cheap insulation. Bought the kind that has a line of stickum that keeps the tube shut.
All in all, the GS coaches are much more happy going South in the winter and North in the summer.
Oh, running heaters, cooking on the stove, and having the water heater on electric, a tank (35 gal) of propane lasts just over a week.

[rdlamb]

By the way, thank you for keeping us up on your coach. Nice to know GS is still stepping up to the plate, albeit in their own time.

[David Bott]

UPDATE...

Ok, just got the coach back and now I need to get it ready for the trip.

On the way home I noticed that the fan that is under the coach, in the front, that is in front of something I thought was the A/C exchanger, was running when I had the heat on.

Now what I mean by ON, is that the dial that has the little icons for FEET/FRONT, FEET, FRONT/DEICE, and DEICE (OFF at the top) and then A/C items on the left. If it was in any position other that just FEET, the fan would come on. (Not sure why it would not come on for FEET only...but it did not.)

Now this is the fan UNDER the coach (Outside in front of the front axle) , not to be confused with the blower fan inside the dash which has it's own speed dial.

So, is this also the heater core and the fan is needed for something? I thought it was the A/C coils as I had only heard the fan cycle on and off on and off, on and off. This is the first time I have used the heat really, this is why this may be a strange question.

NOTE...I am asking for one of the things that was replaced was the Thermo Switch. This was replaced as the front end A/C stopped working and I was told it was the switch and they replaced it.

So, I guess the question is...what is that unit under the coach with the fan? As it is a radiator type unit that seems to run with both the heat and the A/C.

Thank you.

BTW...The slide was fixed, the window was replaced (with a differnt brand mind you as the other went out of busniess) and the dropped panels were secured and repainted. Now I can start to set up the coach for our trip.

[wdawsonsr]

I''m not sure what that fan is cooling. I hear what I believe is the same fan you are talking about. Mine runs all of the time. I haven't had the coach home long enough to check these things out. We think all of our troubles are over. Maybe I'll have some time to check things like this fan motor out. Good luck.
Ed

[David Bott]

Well it seems the condenser fan does run as the compressor runs in some heat modes as it need to take humidity out of the air in order to defrost windows. My fan however is so loud you can hear it even at highway speeds and it's high-pitch sound is very annoying for the people outside the coach.

UPDATE...

So we got the coach back and I can say again, their are service centers that one should not go to. And the fact that Gulf Stream still supports the center is kind of amazing. Twice now I have had to bring our coach to our local area service center, and both times how the work is sub, sub, par. In this case they replaced a window and we had 3 missing screws from the frame. They Were to de-winterize the coach...yet we found that when we turn on the hot water tap we had pink anti-freeze come out. They needed to repaint and reposition a panel...the paint color is gray and not silver. It just burns me up.

Yet if I travel to Dick Gores RV in Jacksonville, I have NEVER received bad work to the extent of them showing me the repairs and also showing me other items they may have noticed and fixed at N/C.

In any case, we are set to head out on Monday and hopping this time for an un-eventful trip which we have yet to have.

Take care, keep safe all.

[David Bott]

Hey all...For those not following our travel blog, I wanted to give an update...

Not having the best time I am sorry to say as we headed out for the first time this year. On our master slide at the top front inside it is digging into the metal when it expands out and meets the outside wall. When looked into, we found their was more of a problem then we had thought. Seeing it requires the slide out to be removed, yes, removed, our dealer really did not want mess with it. I can not blame them. So we were set to head north to Gulf Stream to fix that and also the rear slide. (Yes, from Jacksonville to the plant in IN.)

But wait, theirs more...We then have lost the power inverter AND the generator in the coach and not at the say time...a day apart! Get this...The authorized repair center for the inverter is in Orlando, we were in Jacksonville. So we left at 6AM to and arrived a 8:45. Ready...They Did Not Have The Part Needed! Well then we got ready to head out and found the generator was only putting out 4 volts. (vs 120v). So, we were lucky and PowerTech company was close by! So we called and....Ready...They Did Not Do Service On Fridays!

So we choose to start heading north vs spending the weekend in Orlando. As mentioned we are on the way to Gulf Stream in Nappanee, Indiana where the coach was built. At the Gulf Stream plant the inverter and generator can also be fixed, thus the reason we choose to head out and would stop at a max of 6 hours travel to plug in again. (The Tour Master has a 120v fridge and does not run on propane.)

All in all, here we go AGAIN! Or should we say STILL.

For those that were following our travels via our dash mounted web cam, sorry, but it does not work without the inverter when driving. :(

[wdawsonsr]

David:
We're still in the club with you. Our coach is in Fontanta, CA (L.A.). Last week I found our big slide is still dumping water inside as I retract the slide. I discovered the the slide is positioned 1/2" too far forward. The rear lock arm misses the plate it's supposed to bear against by 1/8". Water still puddles on the slide roof & is not getting wiped dry as the slide came in. Gulf Stream had a driver pick up our coach last Thursday & took it to J & L RV Repair in Fontana, CA. They are the factory repair center for the West Coast. I just talked to the owner a few minutes ago. He sounds promising & will keep me posted on their progress.

On the generator issue. We had to replace the control box & the voltage regulator. Fortunately Powertech has a service rep 45 miles from me & he came up & replaced the components. So far so good on that one. However, who knows what's next.

Good Luck,
Ed

[rdlamb]

Ed: Nice to know someone out there is willing to repair our coaches.

David: I'd not be as kind in my comments as you, had I suffered as you have. Perhaps it is time to review N.Y. lemon laws as applied to your case.

[David Bott]

We arrived at GS today and tomorrow someone is to come by for a chat and to get this started. I will report back of course as to what takes place.

[David Bott]

Hey All...Well, tomorrow, Wednesday, is the day for the fixed to start.

I must say, that GS really have stood behind their product. Brenda and I our pleased with our choice of the company we went with and of course the coach itself once the issues are resolved.

I will report back when all is done, we hope by Friday so we can head home for this Monday will be 4 weeks we have been gone.

Oh, it was a kick eating out tonight and seeing 2 girls raiding their horses down the sidewalk while talking on their cell phones. LOL

[David Bott]

Well... GS has been nice, however we are still here with issues not being resolved. We have power as the inverter and the generator have been repaired. However the slide is a differnt issue.

Not getting into it to much as it really frustrates me, right now for example it is in to have paint work done as it was scratched when it was being worked on. We have found the slide adjustment nuts and lock nuts not even tightened after the slide was worked on. And the list goes on.

At this time we have requested to bring the coach to another service center. (All this work was being done at the GS plant by the line and also then service techs.)

And the fun continues. :)

[rdlamb]

David; Are you saying that you no longer want the GS factory to work on your coach?

Do you have the full-wall slide?

Count me as one who is watching your posts, to see if GS is a company worthy of referrals.

[David Bott]

Hello...

I have a T-40B which is not the full wall slide version. It has 3 slides. (All of which use differnt type systems to move them. Standardizing would help greatly, but that is another story.)

Today, Tuesday, is the last day they will receive to resolve the issues with the main slide or at last find the issue and tell me how they will resolve it. They asked for one more chance to make it right.

They have stood behind the product. The issue I have however us when it is worked on and I am told it is all set and while showing me the coach I find more issues, that makes you question things.

We love the coach itself and have done a lot to it. That is one reason I am giving GS the chance to make it right. BUT WE HAVE BEEN HERE OVER A WEEK and have been FIXING this coach for a year. We understand their could be a long shake down on a new coach, but driving to service centers is not the best use of our money and at times leaving the rig for 2.5 months, well, is poor. These are peoples homes or vacations....their lives!

All in all we will see what will happen. We have not even updated our blog for some time as we have not felt much like writing.

[rdlamb]

Thank you David. Like you mentioned, we are full-timers. If our coach was tied up for days, weeks, months, on end for repairs we would have traded it a long time ago. This is just not acceptable.
Since you are at the factory, how about a trip to the President's office, and a face to face with him?

[wdawsonsr]

David:
Here is the latest on our T40F (full wall slide). It is at J&L RV Service in Fontana, CA (L.A.). It has been there for a little over a week now. I talked to the owner last Thursday. They had removed & replaced the slide-out roof material as well as the luan sheathing. The luan had water damage. No surprise there. They did find that the slide topper awning was not sealed where it mounted on the coach wall which allowed water to collect on the slide roof. However the major sag in the inside ceiling frame was not corrected properly on previous repairs in Portland. J&L will install a full length plate on the upper frame to eliminate the sag. This should allow the top wiper seal to remove all of the water as the slide retracts. As of last Thursday they were waiting for a new bulb seal for the inside flange of the slide. They still had not addressed the fact that the slide is offset 1/2" too far forward. They are supposed to be working on that this week. Gulf Stream uses J&L as their West Coast authorized factory repair center. I will keep you posted on our progress.

Best of Luck,
Ed

[David Bott]

Ok, Still happy with the coach itself as a floor plan and what have you. Still happy with the people at GS. Just not happy that we are STILL HERE another morning for them to "finish up".

The coach came back to us last night at 7:00PM. Yes, 7:00PM and it was not complete. They had the coach for over 10 hours.

My wife and I have been living in their lobby for over a week. We really can not go out and explore as we have a 13 year old German Shepard, Tasha, that we can not just leave in the coach as we do not have it. So we are limited as to what we can do. More or less, drive around, get take out food, eat in the car and greet people as they come in the lobby.

To add to my personal misery, I lost my KVH Sat dish last night. I say misery because were we are only 1 over-the-air station can be reached via RV so a Sat dish is a must. Augh!

[David Bott]

FOLLOWUP...

Ok, well, for those of you playing along. It is time for the followup to the above posts.

As many know, Brenda and I had number of issues with our TM to the point of having to bring it to the plant so GS could work on it directly. Well, after almost 2 weeks of being their, our coach is much better shape.

The main issue we were bring the coach in for was the main slide was not coming all the way out on the bottom part. In other words, the inside top was VERY tight and the bottom sides you could put your fingers between. Now, this does not sound like a hard to thing to fix as the bottom just needed to be moved out some with the ram rod threaded shafts. Well, lets just say something did not go quite right. What went wrong? No one would say but if you look at the issues made after that point, it was not hard to figure out in my humble opinion.

3 different people worked on the slide to the point that they called in PowerGear, the maker of the slide unit. All in all, after several adjustments and part changes, including a pulley and a hydraulic rod, the slide was adjusted. However, with one remaining issue. The paint stripes in the rear part of the slide are no longer lined up. The rear end of the slide is down about 1/2 inch and can not be moved up as now it is already at max up extension. GS assures me this will not be an issue with it getting worse in the future. I however remain sure that it will as everything gives over time. It will sag and will not be able to be moved up in the normal way.

So...Most of the time spent at GS was the slide being taken in and out to find out the issue with it. When I say in and out, I mean, the slide was hyper-extended out of the side of the coach. That means that all of he internal wood trim and would have you would need to come off and go back on. This occurred 3 times and mind you that then we had wood issues as they put on differnt wood that was, well, poor. This of course was changed out.

All in all, at GS, we had...

1) Power inverter replaced as the service center in Orlando, where we were at one time, did not have the part needed.

2) The PowerTech Generator repaired as they PowerTech service center in Orlando was not open on Fridays. (Bad power controller) Note...PowerTech was great to deal with. They came out to the plant and did the repair and were very very nice.

3) Master slide fixed to 95% of us being happy with it.

4) Rear bed side slide leak repaired.

5) New master slide topper as the other one stretch and would not tighten.

6) Awning fixed as it was missing a few bushings that would keep the arm inline so it would close.

7) 2 coach batteries replaced as one was leaking.

8 ) Co-Pilot seat fixed as the front of the seat would be crushed in by the foot rest when it went back in.

I am sure I am missing something more...But those are the main things.

Along with the fixes, GS also helped us out with a few upgrades...

1) The front glass doors for the electronics were replaced with doors that had a black metal mesh. (Our design, they made it happen and did a GREAT job.) The issue is that with the glass doors no heat can get out of the electronics area which is not good for the gear used. Even more if you something that makes a lot of heat like a Hi-Def sat box or PVR as the heat can get really bad.

2) They ran an HDMI cable for the bedroom display as their is really no easy way of doing this.

3) They removed and installed a replacement KVH Sat Dome as mine had broke down yet again. (I purchased the dome, they were nice enough to pull off the old one and put the new one on.)

We thank Gulf Stream for going above and beyond with this special support.

Now with that all said....Let me tell you about Gulf Stream....

Brenda and I are happy with our pick of Gulf Stream and the Tour Master over all. Would be buy from them again or recommend them? Yes. The Tour Master coach offered more than any other coach at the time we purchased and you could not beat the price/value/features of the coach. Not sure if the same will be said for the future however seeing how the market is. Gulf Stream stood behind their product and did the service on the coach noting the issues that were made and considering what changes need to be made when they start the Tour Master line again.

They do however still have a number of places that need to improve. One of which is working more with the community that supports them and that will help them grow...The on-line community. It used to be that word of issues and what have you would only get out at rallies and then it was small groups at that. Now with the Internet, words happen at a click of a button and it can help or hurt a companies sales as a great number of people are reached. Look at the number of views of this thread alone and any one can understand that. So they need to work better with the public and support and help the communities IMHO.

After going though this for over a year, Brenda and I have our own ideas for a Tour Master Special Edition that we are going to propose to GS. This is not only based on what has taken place, but also comes about when we had looked at other coaches when we were considering dropping GS. All in all however, we are currently glad we did not.

Brian Shea, Mark, Dave, Cindy and the rest of the staff at GS, thank you for helping, and even more, listening to our concerns. When someone purchases something of this price tag, it is not a small purchase and your commitment goes a long way.

Special Regards,

[rdlamb]

:D

Bravo David, Bravido!

[wdawsonsr]

Glad to hear you are fixed up. We got word a couple of hours ago that our TM left Fontana, CA about 11:00 AM PDT so we should see it sometime mid to late afternoon tomorrow. It has been there for a month. J&L RV Repair is faxing me an itemized list of the repairs made. In talking to them I feel they got to the crux of the problem. I will know for sure when I see it in the flesh & can scrutinize it thoroughly.

Ed

[coolchas11]

David, you are a true gentleman for giving a fair final summation of your issues with GS. We, also, love our TM, but never had problems as extensive as yours. I truly appreciate reading that Sheas, et al were involved and helpful. Charlie

[David Bott]

"I truly appreciate reading that Sheas, et al were involved and helpful."

Yes, but sadly it seems nothing has changed for the good. I have even now put in 2 calls about the newly replaced inverter not working correctly. Calls have not been returned. Looks like we will be making another trip to GS.

[rdlamb]

David:
We are planning a trip, which takes us by the GS factory. It would be nice to be able to stop for a day and have GS technicians work on our TM.

Who do you call to set up appointments?

[David Bott]

I would start by calling GS. Cindy is the service director, so she would be your best bet.

[rdlamb]

Well, will call Cindy on Monday. Hopefully, we can spend a day touring the factory while GS does the updates I wish.
Thanks for the speedy reply David.

[davidahn]

What a discouraging thread! I was just about convinced to decide on the Tourmaster Constellation by some GS fans including OP David Bott. I'm not nearly as understanding or patient as David Bott, who remains loyal to GS despite his horrible experience. He may have the free time to chase repairs all over the country for 2 years, but I work full time and my vacations need to be spent vacationing!

I'm now firmly looking at Newmars and other reliable brands (Travel Supreme, American Coach, Tiffin, etc.). I guess I have to give up my 7.5' ceiling, yacht styling and home theater. Oh well!

David

[David Bott]

Woah David!!! Woah!!!

Before you jump to such a conclusion you may care to read about issues that others have had with such "reliable brands". Their is NO perfect coach that does not have any issues. None. Zadda. They story you should have taken is that GS stood behind dealing with the issues that came up. We all have had issues, that is for sure.

If you think I have time to do what I did to get things resolved, well, I really did not, but that is part of RVing in a motor coach. You will quickly find this to be true no matter what you spend your money on. You WILL require service. You will be left with your coach parked for days. You WILL here other stories of issues and meet other who will say they will not buy X again. I however never said that based on the love the the coach itself and a company that did help out.

We GS owners however have seen that paying more for a coach does not mean less issues. GS is by far the most bang for the buck and is the reason we went with them. Yes we had issues, but this is not limited to GS by ANY means.

Not the mention...most of the issues we had were product related. Example, Xantrex. This was not a GS issue, but a product that is used in MANY coaches. However, GS did their part and took care of it vs sending me to a manufacturer of the product.

[11B]

Dave, I droped you a couple more PM at the other place.

[David Bott]

Just wondering...Why not help here and not via PM on another site?

[davidahn]

11B, please post your PM to me on this thread. It was immensely helpful to me in getting some balanced perspective. Thank you, David Bott as well for your sage advice.

I've thought about it, and you're both right, 11B and DB. I could have similar problems with any manufacturer, and even if I have NO issues, I've still spent $100K more for a rig 2 years older that isn't exactly what I wanted.

I'm looking at a used one, which should have the biggies worked out already, and worst case scenario, I have it in the shop off & on for 1-2 years. Heck, I'm not on vacation all the time anyway. I save $100K, get the coach I really want, and in a year or two, I can enjoy it for the next 10 years.

Best case: I save $100K, get the rig I want, AND have no problems.

Sounds really good, guys. Thanks for your experience and perspective.

BTW, David, howdy. I was wondering if it was you (avsforum) or another David Bott!

[David Bott]

LOL...Yes, thats me. :) You now found my other passion, motor coaching, other than operating AVSForum.com. (Now you really can see why I MUST have data access from the other thread. :))

On that note...I also looked at the Big C (what I call it) but the floor plan was not to my liking. After all, the floor plan is the key. And to think, theater room and all. It was right up our alley. (But alas, I am adding front projection to our TM.)

[11B]

David B, the only reason I did it through the other site was that is where I first saw his post and had already replied before checking here. Here is a copy of the the PM I sent him and it is truely the way I feel about my GS Friendship.

""David first let me respond to your thoughts about David Bott and others. I bought my MH three years ago in about the same way you are (no experiance) at the time The G-8 I purchased was the top of the line for GS and with the options they offered and the price I could see no reason to go for the higher priced rigs no matter how much everyone bragged about them.

It has been my experiance over the last three years that the biggest problems you will encounter will come from componet parts and all builders use the same ones. Its a matter of reading thier warranty books and figureing it out yourself. This is mainly where the rub comes with most new buyers, they figure they should be able to call GS and and have them tell them what to do when a little reading would solve the problem ASAP.

I am very limited in my mechanical ability so as far as oil and filter changes I rely on people like Freightliner and other folks and belive me cost verse headaches its well wirth it. If you have a dealer close by to take care of warranty items for the first year you will have no problems with GS, after that your on your own with each seperate item and how to deal with them. I have found that a reasonable person will catch a lot more bees with honey than a damanding jackass that only sees the glass as half empty (most RV.net posters).

Davisd Bott is very happy with his coach but remember no matter what brand you choose you will go through a least a 12 month shake down period that I found the biggest problem to be not the coach but your ability to read and understand how it all works. Also remember that very little of what will need to be fixed actually is with the coach and builder.
I have done my homework on GS as far as a company goes and I like the fact they are family owned and have a strong balance sheet. As I said before thier still building coachs and thats a lot more than other people can say.""

[David Bott]

Ah! Makes sense seeing you found him their first.

You are so right ion what you said. I am happy with the TM even after what we went though (I was ticked off surely at points). I also know I am not alone in going though the things we did and it has actually made me a better coach owner (If you look on the bright side of life.). As you nicely pointed out, like I did (good for us), it is usually not an issue with the coach itself but the products used. Most people forget, or do not think about, is each time you drive your HOME it is like a 3.0 earth quake to it.

Hey in regards to... "...your thoughts about David Bott and others" Hey David, what thoughts? LOL

Take care all. BTW...2 weeks from tomorrow we hit the road for 5 months. From Upstate NY to Calf and anywhere south in between.

[davidahn]

LOL...Yes, thats me. :) You now found my other passion, motor coaching, other than operating AVSForum.com. (Now you really can see why I MUST have data access from the other thread. :))

On that note...I also looked at the Big C (what I call it) but the floor plan was not to my liking. After all, the floor plan is the key. And to think, theater room and all. It was right up our alley. (But alas, I am adding front projection to our TM.)

LOL! Awesome. I'm also a huge HT fan, have considered going on a HT cruise or two with avsforum. And yes, I guess it's worth $5K to you to have internet access at all times. :)

The T40B's floorplan looks nearly identical except for the half bath and the fridge being flipped, and the recliner in place of the 2nd sofa (I would probably put in a jacknife sofa in place of the reclincer too), and the HT recliners in place of the full wall unit/dresser opposite the bed. Which part didn't work for you? I'm curious, maybe there's something I'm missing.

For me the clincher was the curved yacht-like cabinets. I love that look! You mentioned your FPTV. I would put a fixed rigid 80" screen under the Murphy bed with a 1080p PJ, move the 46" to the living room, the 32" to the bedroom, and get another 32" in the basement (19" is ridiculous!).

And re: my "thoughts about David Bott and others," 11B's referring to my previous post here where I was discouraged by your tribulations and those of the other sufferers. Nothing bad! :)

David

[David Bott]

We leave on the 09 HT Cruise this coming Friday. Then back on the 15th and off in the coach on the 19th.

Yes, we do not have the second couch, we have a cabinet with a pop up (motorized) 32" LCD that come up and a Euro recliner next to it. I replaced all the sets in the coach with Samsungs. Have a 32" above the co-pilot chair, 32" in the pop up, 26" in the bed room and a 26" in the basement.

I also ran all HDMI throughout the coach and use a 4x4 Matrix switcher. I mention this for just a heads up that even the C is wired all COMPOSITE!!!!!

I did not think is was anything bad...I just thought it was funny. I really did layout our, lets call it an adventure, with our first coach. Always finding new needs...I not sure that will end. Kind of like the home theater bug.

Good luck with your choice. Let us know now it plays out.

BTW...How did you connect me with AVS? Did I happen to mentioned it here or was it just the name connection? I ask, for I seem to run into that no matter where I go on-line. And on a side note...if you are the same user name on AVS, you have been with us from 2000! Nice and thanks!

[davidahn]

Missed another one (HT cruise). Priorities have shifted for me, more into church and community building, though the 133" FPTV comes in handy for Lost night with church friends. :)

OK, so your recliner and pop up 32" LCD is actually just like the "Big C" as you call it. Samsungs are sweet looking TVs, and make me proud to be Korean. :) But for me, the recliner and motorized TV stand will have to go so I can sleep more guests. And the 19" and the 15" in the basement are just ridiculous. Maybe a flip-down 32" ceiling mounted for watching in bed. The 4x4 matrix sounds great, and HDMI is nice for passing audio in one cable.

As for the AVS connection, I was wondering from the beginning, but you posted a link to avsforum regarding image posting in this very thread. Busted! You'd actually also mentioned your cross-country HT tour and AVSforum but I'd missed that post until I did a search just now! BTW, if you do a cross-country HT tour, you'll hit my neck o' the woods if you do a Route 66 tour... Victorville's on Route 66. I'd love to see your rig.

As for actually making a decision, I've got some financial prep work to do first, so it may be a few months. We have 2 vehicles to pay off, 2 offices to finish tenant improvements on (my wife's dental office is 90% done, my 2nd medical office is 50% done). Then we'll sell some stocks when they rebound, and we're golden. :) Hope we don't miss the buyer's market before we're ready to pull the trigger!

David

[GO BLUE]

Davidahn....I am also still working full time and use my 07 t40b on the average 25 weekends a year....7 nascar races....disney...key west and fort myers beach....put about 8000 miles a year.....but in between times I schedule repairs.....this is a house on wheels....and things break.....if you think rv"s are in the shop a lot ..try a boat.....but the wife and I love our tourmaster.........jim k

[davidahn]

Thanks, GoBlue! I'm impressed you go out every other weekend! My wife and I are homebodies, but maybe we would go out more if we could take our "home" with us. We enjoy Nascar and live near California Speedway, not to mention there's beach, mountains, desert, skiing/snowboarding, Vegas, etc. within 1-2 hours of us. I think we'd really enjoy it!

BTW, GoBlue, are you a University of Michigan alum? My wife is a Wolverine (School of Dentistry 2004). Or does that mean something else too?

[11B]

David B, I have read of all your trails and tribulations since you first showed up on this Board. Trust me. I have felt your pain with each trial and have admired the way you have got what you wanted done with style and class rather than just cry like others.

I am fairly reserved in my posts here only because I am one of the people that bought GS from a great dealer and have never had a problem with the factory for any "covered" repairs or directions as to who to contact to help with a component problems.

Its a great pleasure to see all the new poster on this board and the way they go about getting things done rather than to just bitch about the factory support. I would hope that the factory would take the time to look in on the board from time to time and see that " a perceived image" can change and work to their advantage.

I like you Owen my own company and believe that my customers on;y expect three things from me "Service, Quality Products and last but not least Price". I think that because of buyers like you and the rest of the good folks that post here GS is learning that in today's market place the third option above is becoming far less important then the first two.

[David Bott]

"I have felt your pain with each trial and have admired the way you have got what you wanted done with style and class rather than just cry like others. "

Well thank you kindly. Once you get someone upset at you by saying something hurtful, you really never can recover and they are less willing to help you.

I have had the opposite happen too...were I was being too nice and it seemed as if they felt that, well, seeing I am not upset, no real need to take action. Very strange indeed.

We did go though a lot, in the end, to us, GS came through. Would it have been differnt with another manufacturer? Maybe, maybe not. Would I have had issues with another manufacturers coach, sure! To what end, unclear as every coach will have some level of issue. (So I was told when this all started and now believe. I could not think it could be so true! After all, you pay $XXXXXXX for these coaches...they have to be all built great.)

I also wish that GS would take more of an active roll on-line. It would only be a solid benefit to the lines and their success. Alas, even talking to Brian Shea, it seemed that it did not get to that point after I thought what I made was a compelling reason for it. After all, I know on-line communities, I know what works and does not when it comes to helping or hurting ones image on-line.

[gsadmin]

David, you have definitely gone through a lot and I would say you many times more patient than a great deal of GS customers.

The reason this site exists is purely because I saw the need and GS did not.

GS, like many manufacturers do not have the stomach for anything but praise and cannot see how much value there is in a community. Firstly, because if someone is unfairly treating the manufacturer, they will come to the aid of the manufacturer if...Secondly, they deal with their issues and turn lemons into lemonade. People KNOW that companies are not perfect. What they also KNOW is that the good companies can be discerned from the bad by seeing how they deal with a problem in their product.

Many old-school business people will NEVER get it. They are stuck in the dark ages where you simply buy a bigger closet when the skeletons stack up.

Many on this board have asked very fair questions from GS. Specific questions about their coach as well as requesting mere documentation on their product.

A couple of years ago if you told me that after thousands of posts, GS did not assign one or two people to respond to issues here in the forum I would have thought you were insane.

Let's continue helping each other and some day maybe GS will become more open to their owners.

Thanks again David, this is a great thread.

[davidahn]

DB, you're absolutely right, you catch more flies with honey. Most people simply DON'T GET IT, thinking yelling and bitching is going to get people And it looks like you've caught some flies finally after all your trials.

GSadmin, thanks for this site! And you're absolutely right. I can't believe Gulfstream hasn't had even an intermittent presence here, especially in this economy! The last thing I want to do in my free time is work, so I kinda get it, but this is economy is a great opportunity. In a collapsing market, you can grab market share from failing companies, but only by trying harder, doing it better than the other companies, not by sitting around wishing.

David

[RayChez1]

I would have to say that YES they all have what they call shake down repairs. What I done when I bought my coach was to write down everything you find wrong with the coach. Call the dealer up and tell him you have a list of what needs adjustment or repaired. In my case the dealer was very cooperative and I took it in and I have not had any major problems with my Gulfstream coach since I bought it in 2003 brand new. But you can go to other forums and everybody has had some problems with quality control. The only people that will not admit to having problems are the Newmar folks, but I have friends that have them and they have the same problems every other company has. Newmar owners believe it is sacraliges to say anything in public about their coaches and get very upset if they mention something wrong with them.
While Gulfstream owners go around from forum to forum advertising theri problems. It is just not right. Keep the problems right here in the Gulfstream forum.

[David Bott]

"While Gulfstream owners go around from forum to forum advertising theri problems. It is just not right"

Well, if Gulf Stream would take an interest in helping their owners with on-line questions, that could change. The issue is that people feel like they are not getting listened or taken seriously so they complain to whomever will listen, site after site, after site. This hurts no matter what.

[davidahn]

I'm a physician, and they say once a bad outcome happens, most physicians tend to avoid the patient or family. But studies show that the more you communicate and show compassion, the less likely patients are to seek legal action.

People want to know that they matter, and that they're being heard. And some companies' customer service reps have better interpersonal skills than others', while some companies simply want to avoid confrontation. These companies will get WAY fewer word-of-mouth referrals, which is the bread and butter of ANY high-end business involving discretionary spending.

David

[David Bott]

Well, as of last Sunday the 28th, has already been two years we have had the 2008 GS Tour Master. After a cross country trip from Upstate New York to California that started last November, we actually ended up in the same RV park in Ft. Pierce Florida that was the first stop me made. Funny thing is, it was the same day, 2 years later we rolled in. :) We will not be back home still until the end of April.

So, hows it been? We love being in a coach! We love meeting other fine people with the like interest! We love being able to wake up in the morning and know we are moving to see something new! We are even looking to purchase a RV condo lot in Silver Springs Florida!

The Tour Master has been a fine coach once we made the changes to make it our own and got the "bugs" out. Seeing have done so much with it, we will hang on to it for a few more years at least before we look to make a change to another coach. But then again, we do have have this now setup for our needs so any change means we sort of start over. Another adventure!

All in all, these last two years, except for the issues and frustration noted in this thread, we would not give back. Then again, even the times we had issues and frustration, we were able to meet some great people that we have not only learned from, but became friends with, and have traveled with.

From being new to this life style 2 years ago, to planning a theme cruise for the industry in general, it has been quite a "ride". Thanks all for being a part of it.

[davidahn]

David, congrats on your 2nd anniversary. I'm glad to hear you're enjoying it. I've shelved my RV plans for now, but hope to revisit this decision in 1-2 years. I'm grateful to you and all the others who have shared your insights, experiences, and perspectives.

Keep on truckin'!

David

[RayChez1]

David, congrats on your 2nd anniversary. I'm glad to hear you're enjoying it. I've shelved my RV plans for now, but hope to revisit this decision in 1-2 years. I'm grateful to you and all the others who have shared your insights, experiences, and perspectives.

Keep on truckin'!

David

Davidahn, I am just curious as to what coach brand did you finally end up with. I know you mentioned three coaches. The Constellation, Essex and the Travel Supreme.
I was also very interested on the Constellation, but I never got to see one. I just read about them, but never seen one.

[RayChez1]

David Bott, congratulations on your second year with your TourMaster. I know we all get a little concerned when we first buy a new coach because I believe they all have some shake down issues at first. We had a few also when we first bought the Scenic Cruiser. But after we weeded them out, it has been a perfect coach. We bought ours in 2003 and the last six years have been trouble free with the exception of a fuel pump that went bad and the extended warranty took care of that. But the coach itself has been a great coach.
What really surprises me is that I never had any problems with Gulf Stream getting issues taken care off, yet I read on some forums that some RVers can't even contact them. Maybe when the economy took a dump all companies were a little hesitant on their responsiblilties.
But I am glad that you have had minor issues as of late and that is great to hear.

[David Bott]

Hey Ray...

He said "I've shelved my RV plans for now, but hope to revisit this decision in 1-2 years" so we still have time to work on him. LOL (Kidding)

Gulf Stream has done right by us, but I am sorry to say I run into way to may GS owners that do not say the same. It really is sad to hear. Unlike when I have talked to owners of "T" products, I have yet to hear one bad thing about service. (Being nice by saying T vs the name.) It is conversations like that that make me want to look at that line closer when the time comes. GS makes a fine product at the right price point and value for the dollar, when they are not having issues with production. They would go a lot further with future sales if they had the right word of mouth that will actually build the company further vs hampering it.

We are proud of our coach and love it when someone comes up and says "Nice coach" with the next words of "Who make that?". Once I say GS, it seems the tone kind of changes at times. Or they say, "Really? Never knew they did such a coach." To which I say, it is a special club. :)

Take care

[RayChez1]

I know exactly where you are coming from when you mention who the manufacture is. But I think this is all caused by another forum participants on RV.NET. That forum is controlled by a few Newmar owners and they have great battles with the Tiffin owners as to which is better then the other. Lot of kid stuff as far as I am concerned. But the thing is that they really bash other brands like GS, Fleetwood, etc etc.
But I can't complain about the GS that I have. My wife and I really like the coach and it gives us a smooth ride with very few problems. Glad to read that you guys are also happy with your coach.

[Big Al - Boston]

Im looking at a 2005 SunVoyager SE 29 ft with 7K miles. I'm new at RVs so I need some help. The RV looks very clean and seems to run well with the Ford V-10. What should I be looking at? It has the original tires, they look good, no cracking, but being 5 years old are they an issue? How many MPGs could I expect if I don't drive it like a race car? What systems are most vulnerable on a 5 year old RV? What about extended warranties?

Any help will be VERY appreciated

[David Bott]

You would be better off posting this in a new thread.

Welcome to the site.


Im looking at a 2005 SunVoyager SE 29 ft with 7K miles. I'm new at RVs so I need some help. The RV looks very clean and seems to run well with the Ford V-10. What should I be looking at? It has the original tires, they look good, no cracking, but being 5 years old are they an issue? How many MPGs could I expect if I don't drive it like a race car? What systems are most vulnerable on a 5 year old RV? What about extended warranties?

Any help will be VERY appreciated

[David Bott]

Hi All...

Just wanted to give an update to our TM saga. :)

All is going very well with one exception we had during our winter 5 month trip. The floor in the bedroom dry rotten out. Yes, you read that right. It seems a seal was missed on the bottom of the slide on the passenger side, at least that is what I was told, and water had gotten in and did it's thing over time.

Well, GS did step up and handled the issue and we are pleased with the result.

We recently got back from the RVFest with other Gulf Streamers. While in Goshen we went over Focal Woodworking in Nappinee and had some interior upgrades done. Please see our travel site below for current updates.

Take care, keep safe, and happy travels.

[RJ82much]

David & Brenda,

I just viewed your interior upgrade report on your website. AWESOME - AWESOME - AWESOME. The valences, the tables, all the touches.

I have tried to design, purchase, get ideas for a table between our driver's and passenger seats. Nothing seems quite right. GS ignored my request for doors in the front overhead where the analog TV was. I was going to use the space for storage and locate our flat screen on the mirrored shelf under the entertainment center. Instead, I went to plan B and installed the flat screen back in the overhead.

I just haven't been able to make our coach as comfy & homey as what you have done. NICE JOB!!!