PDA

View Full Version : Residential Refrigerator


nemo45
01-31-2013, 08:14 PM
The Norcold 1200 Refrigerator in my 2006 Tour Master has trouble maintaining 40 deg. when outside tempuratures get near 90 deg. even when it it turned all the way up. Getting as high as 48 deg. I have added another fan in the compartment in the rear and it has helped some. But its not worked properly. I thought maybe the thermister was bad, but my RV repairman says if the thermister is bad it will get too cold in the refrigerator. He says the cooling unit is getting weak. I do know that with the refrigerator in the AC mode it uses about 12 to 15 KWH's a day, which is way too much. I believe its because the heating elements are running continually. I have decided that if I can't get the refrig running right, I'm going to replace it with a Samsung RF197 residential refrig which will fit nicely in the whole left by the Norcold. I have seen charts that say the Samsung RF197 use about 450KWH a year which translates to about 1.2 KWH a day. Has anyone done this to a Tour Master with a refrigerator of any kind? With the price of a new RV type refrig being about $3300 I think this is the way to go. I believe I did see in the 2007 brochures for Tour Master that they went to a residential refrigerator that year. Any advice or experience either with fixing the Norcold 1200 or replacing it with a residential?

RayChez1
02-01-2013, 11:33 PM
If you do not dry camp much then I would say go with the Samsung, but if you are not hooked up to shore power then you might have to add a couple of house batteries. Not sure how many batteries you have now, but most of the coaches coming out with house type refrigerators have at least six six volt deep cycle batteries.

nemo45
02-02-2013, 03:48 PM
We hardly ever dry camp, except maybe a night in a walmart parking lot when we are traveling. We've done that twice in the last 5 yrs. We have four 6V batteries in our bank for the inverter and two 12V deep cells connected to the converter for all our 12V stuff and of course two 12V starting batteries. I think I'll be ok as the refrigerator will be the only thing on the inverter.

RayChez1
02-02-2013, 10:53 PM
Yes, I believe you will be OK with the Samsung refrigerator. Keep us up dated on the installation and how you got it into the coach and how much of a modification you have to make in the slot where the Norcold 1200 was located. I am interested incase ours ever goes out it sounds like a good option. Securement in the slot is what concerns me as to how you will secure it from rolling out.
Lots of pictures if you can.

rescue7
02-03-2013, 08:22 AM
The factory put 2 brackets, one on each side on top which use the same bolt on the refed hinge. then bolted to the upper cabinet.

Don

RayChez1
02-03-2013, 10:40 PM
Don, you mean you use the same brackets that secure the Norcold 1200 LRIM on the Samsung refrigerator?

I also read on another forum that the Samsung is like two inches taller and this guy had to lower the base in order to make it fit. If that is a fact I am not sure I could lower the box because right under my frig is the furnace. I have not really looked at it that close, so I am not sure if there would be enough room to make the modification on mine.

Don, did yours come out of the factory with the Samsung or did you add it on later.

rescue7
02-04-2013, 07:19 AM
I dont know what brackets the norcold uses, never had one. My came from factory with the GE 23 cu.

Don

nemo45
02-04-2013, 11:46 AM
I dont know what brackets the norcold uses, never had one. My came from factory with the GE 23 cu.

Don
The 2007 Tour Master brocuher says it comes with a residential refrigerator.

Chuck v
06-21-2015, 04:17 PM
I realize that this is an old thread but issues with my GE 23 cu ft residential refrigerator have me looking into my alternatives regarding servicing my GE residential refrigerator. Anyone with any experience in this regard -- PLEASE CHIME IN !!

My unit is regulating the temperature in the refrigerator section as it should, and keeps it near the 37 degree setting even when it is very hot outside. BUT, my freezer section is not regulating at my 0 degree set point and sometimes gets up to 17 or even 19 degrees. This is not good for long term food storage (or short term either for that matter -- but the venison in there is not going to be easily replaced...)

From what I read on-line this issue is most likely the 'control board' mounted under a metal cover on the right side of the rear of the unit. Those of you with the Tour Master coaches know that there is an outside access door, but it only exposes the lowest 9 inches or so of the rear of the GE unit...enough to turnoff/disconnect the water supply, unplug the unit, etc. but not access this control board cover. I can see the hex head screws along the lower edge and maybe remove 3 or 4 of them but the manual says 9 are used on the cover. And of course I need to get the connectors unplugged and the board swapped. There is a very good video on the net showing how to do this board replacement, but it presumes you have unrestricted access to the rear of the unit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dPDW0hlja8

I don't know for sure if the controller is the root cause, but for $75 in parts costs it is worth a try (I do not charge myself for my labor :lol: ) From my reading on this controller board topic the most common failure is the 13+ volts supply won't hold up under full current load and random symptoms can ensue. Last year I changed out the original inverter in my coach for a pure sine unit so maybe the power to the fridge when on inverter needs to be of a certain quality to keep these controller boards happy... So, if I can extend the life of this refrigerator by another 5 to 10 years it would be well worth the effort and cost of this repair.

At this point some may question why I am interested in resurrecting a nearly 10 year old appliance that is troublesome rather than replacement, but consider this set of constraints: I am living full time in this rig and can't take the time and effort to get it 100+ miles to the qualified service center that can take out my windshield and remove/replace the 32x32x70 and 325 pounds that this box shaped appliance represents. (I did remove the washing machine and replace it with a more capable one when the coach was first acquired -- that was challenge enough. At least that went through the front door with the aid of an engine hoist...) I have been quoted 'budgetary' costs for the refrigerator removal and replacement at about $1000 labor and up to $1800 for the appliance itself. Add that to some days off work and it prompts my looking at alternatives.

The refrigerator in the Tour Master is cabinet mounted about 12 inches higher than the floor -- so moving it out even partially is going to require some support. I have found that the plastic milk crates are the right size and strength to use 3 across with some particle board on top for smoothly supporting the wheels on the bottom front of the appliance. As mentioned by Don earlier in this thread, there are metal brackets at the top of the refrigerator that secure it to the cabinetry using some of the door hinge mounting screws. It appears that you have to take the top wood trim piece off to access these brackets. The lower rear of the refrigerator is also bolted/screwed down to the floor of the cabinet space -- but I believe that I can access those from the outside service door.

My plan is as follows: Once I get the new control board that I have ordered, I will disconnect all the brackets, water lines, AC power and move the refrigerator just a foot or so forward out of the cabinet. I believe that this will give me access enough to remove the metal board cover panel and swap out the controller. I am sure that I will need a helper as I am in my 70's and not willing to horse this thing around by myself...and I want to get it back exactly where it was after the board swap so the brackets will bolt back up. I will try to take documentation quality pictures and post if I am successful. Actually I will post again even if I am not successful as that might be helpful to someone in the future as well...

Chuck

Chuck v
01-13-2018, 02:03 PM
Sorry to let this thread stay open ended -- I did manage to replace the module by making a riser platform in front of the fridge and rolling it partially out of the cabinet. Then I accessed the board module via the exterior service door by reaching up and removing the panel on the fridge rear. This module lasted 2.5 years without any issue. but while I was out of state last month it failed completely -- spoiling all the food in the freezer and fridge, making a substantial mess/smell to greet me when I returned to my coach. Turns out the fuse on this second board blew for some reason -- so I rolled the unit out of the cabinet partially again and put the old module back in (it has unknown/questionable temp regulation from my earlier experiences, but it should at let the appliance cool...I will watch it closely and if needed replace it with a NEW one.) This time I took pictures, and will try to show them in the next post

Chuck

Chuck v
01-13-2018, 02:18 PM
some pictures are here:
http://www.gsowners.com/forums/album.php?albumid=15

Chuck

Sudsy
01-14-2018, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=RayChez1;17164] Keep us up dated on the installation and how you got it into the coach

I'd like to hear more bout the "Fitting it in" part.

Sudsy

zippyphd
08-05-2018, 10:30 AM
GE == POS

But what really pisses me off is the engineer that decided to put a 20" door to a coach that has 23" has a wide appliance! Really? The ONLY way to replace the fridge is through the windshield? That's just bad engineering...

Chuck v
08-05-2018, 11:06 AM
Zippy the pinhead,


While the refrigerator in my coach will not fit through the door, I have to correct you on the dimensions you quoted.



The door to my coach is 25 inches wide (and accommodated a change in the washer when we first bought this motor home and the wife wanted one with more features -- we did not change out the separate dryer...) A front load washer weighs nearly as much as some refrigerators since they contain intentional weighting (usually concrete or similar) in the base to reduce vibration related issues...) It was interesting to dance around these appliances on their journey from the very back of the coach to the front door -- and the reverse direction for the new unit -- but entirely possible for even the two of us in our 70's.


The refrigerator however is another matter -- it is 23 cubic foot capacity (not 23 inches wide as you stated) and its external dimensions are 32.75 inches wide by 33.5 inches deep and 69.25 inches high. Clearly this does not fit out the door and is no surprise to anyone in the industry familiar with how these coaches are manufactured. A motor home is a highway vehicle, and the doors must conform to all the rules for such use.



I have been able to make the needed minor module exchanges/repairs on this existing refrigerator myself...and even if I ultimately have to replace the unit through the windshield or a side window at a few thousand dollars expense for labor it is quite acceptable to remain living in a very comfortable high end coach that is fully paid for.


Your counter-culture derived user name might indicate some hostility to the 'mainstream' business of designing and manufacturing commercially available vehicles -- or maybe it is just a humorous choice with no significance. In any event my career of many decades in engineering has shown that most decisions are carefully made regarding the return on investment for any design choice.



You are of course free to denigrate all GE engineering (and I cannot support many GE management decisions or strategies) but at least get the underlying facts correct as to simple dimensions, etc.


Chuck (...yes a fully transparent user name...)

Restorium
08-05-2018, 11:39 AM
I like the 'through the windshield' idea. Not that bad.

zippyphd
08-05-2018, 01:39 PM
Read the reviews on the appliance. http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-specs/GSS23WGTBB

Additionally, saying the door dimensions must conform to highway standards is just bunk. Look at the variety of door sizes available on all sorts of vehicles, from 18 wheelers to vans to sport cars...

Regarding engineering, any good engineer will consider the service-ability of all components. (BTW, I was an engineer for over 30 years.)

Restorium
08-05-2018, 02:07 PM
Read the reviews on the appliance. http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-specs/GSS23WGTBB

Additionally, saying the door dimensions must conform to highway standards is just bunk. Look at the variety of door sizes available on all sorts of vehicles, from 18 wheelers to vans to sport cars...

Regarding engineering, any good engineer will consider the service-ability of all components. (BTW, I was an engineer for over 30 years.)
To a REAL engineer, taking out the windshield isn't that bad. :D

I always wished that they made vehicles easier to work on. Then I went to work and just fixed the thing!

Chuck v
08-05-2018, 07:45 PM
Restorium,


Yes the pragmatic approach is usually the most positive way to get things done, although sometimes complaining is cathartic for certain personality types. I have worked on many vehicles where the item I need to access SEEMS to be the first thing that manufacturing assembly begins with, and all the rest is placed around it to frustrate access. However, real progress comes from further inspection/research and then applying the most successful approaches used in similar cases (like access through the windshield -- it is after all a large opening in the structure once the glass is out.


Zippy -- the NHTSA has detailed test methods for vehicle doors, here is just one example:
https://one.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nvs/pdf/TP-206-08_19_Feb_2010.pdf
It is not a trivial expense to get any such vehicle class 'approved' and it is a much higher overhead per vehicle if it is one of just tens of high end custom coaches versus your typical car that is one of several millions of a high production run.


Yes I have seen product reviews similar to the GE appliance page you linked, and the internet gives voice to anyone that wishes to complain.
Some of the postings there are directly related to the control board and it is a weakness in this particular design. However, compare the rate of failure to the Norcold RV units that are so often much more unreliable, far less efficient at cooling, and much more expensive to boot.


...so I just keep going forward and do what I judge is best in my particular case without forcing any other readers here to agree. Thanks for your input and the link you shared.


Chuck

Restorium
08-06-2018, 07:51 AM
Gulf Stream owner talking with insurance man;

"Someone threw a refrigerator right through my windshield.";)

zippyphd
08-06-2018, 10:02 AM
Appliances fail. Requiring over $1000 of unnecessary expense in order to replace is just not acceptable. Just like GM creating new tools in order to ensure that customers use dealerships for maintenance, it's either negligent or worst case, planned. Access could be provided in a number of ways. The front door could have been enlarged, the rear windows, (emergency exit) could be taller, (I think about 4" would do it) or an access panel could have been provided behind the fridge, where the small access panel currently is. Any of these solutions would have made it possible to replace the fridge at minimal cost.

Instead, I'm stuck with either replacing the fridge or repairing. Regarding repair, I have tested the main board (good), and replaced the defrost thermostat. I am trying to determine if it's possible there was a coolant leak, and is it possible to replace.

I don't mean to be negative, but for a coach in this price range, I would hope that quality would have been a primary goal. As I have owned this coach for 3 years, I have learned that hope was in error.

Restorium
08-06-2018, 10:17 AM
Appliances fail. Requiring over $1000 of unnecessary expense in order to replace is just not acceptable. Just like GM creating new tools in order to ensure that customers use dealerships for maintenance, it's either negligent or worst case, planned. Access could be provided in a number of ways. The front door could have been enlarged, the rear windows, (emergency exit) could be taller, (I think about 4" would do it) or an access panel could have been provided behind the fridge, where the small access panel currently is. Any of these solutions would have made it possible to replace the fridge at minimal cost.

Instead, I'm stuck with either replacing the fridge or repairing. Regarding repair, I have tested the main board (good), and replaced the defrost thermostat. I am trying to determine if it's possible there was a coolant leak, and is it possible to replace.

I don't mean to be negative, but for a coach in this price range, I would hope that quality would have been a primary goal. As I have owned this coach for 3 years, I have learned that hope was in error.

Keith,
Refrigerators are only lasting 10 years these days. Sad but true.
Have you checked the compressor relay?
Check and see if it rattles. If it rattles it is junk. They are cheap. Worth a try.

Chuck v
08-06-2018, 11:13 PM
Zippy,


Sorry to hear that you too are having issues with the residential refrigerator in your coach. What year and model is your Gulf Stream? On my 2007 Tour Master, the rear emergency exit window is more like a foot smaller in the height dimension than the needed size to clear the 32+ inch box of the refrigerator when on its side. Plus, the rear window is two doorways removed from the installed location of the fridge and each of these is also well under 32 inches - being the same 25 inches wide as the front entry door itself.


I would like to hear more about how you tested your control card (and how you accessed it...) and a bit more about replacing the defrost thermostat -- each of these parts would normally be under suspicion if the freezer was icing up and letting its temperature rise above the control point...but your concern that there is a loss of refrigerant via a coolant leak would point the other way to a lack of any cooling.


Have you removed the internal covers from the cooling fins to see how badly the unit might be icing up? On my fridge, the work to do this is a bit hindered by the narrow cabinet in that area and the depth of the compartment...you really can't get both hands to the back wall at the same time if your shoulders are of normal width. I have acquired extra long extensions for my screwdrivers and nut drivers to help with this.


Yes the quality of the appliances in this coach is limited by what is available commercially, so my 11 year old refrigerator has needed some repair and maintenance by now. At the beginning of this thread another coach owner is making an even stronger case that the Norcold units at $3000+ and very poor performance are even less of a complete answer to an appropriate food storage appliance. They do however, fit through the door...


In my various homes over the years I have replaced a number of refrigerators at an age of much less than 11 years, some for improved features and others from performance loss. These range from simple units to full featured dutch door contemporary units to built in Pro units that are very high end...none of these designs or manufacturers are fault free if you read the reviews. The most common remedy for a balky refrigerator is replacement if the repair is too extensive/costly but that is less of an option in the case of a coach such as the one I have until the alternative of removal/replacement is the only choice.


Let us know if you have tried all the 'normal' service tricks with your coach refrigerator -- maybe there is something that has worked for me that you have yet to come across...


Chuck

Restorium
08-07-2018, 05:50 AM
The last time I had a refrigerator go bad I asked the manufacturer what could have caused it to quit when it was not very old. They said that power fluctuations are the biggest cause of premature electrical appliance failure.

With a home on wheels we are subject to many different power sources with an even greater chance of power fluctuations. I noticed some of the people who own the higher end motorhomes have power management devices to make sure that power fluctuations do not ruin their expensive electronics.

Chuck v
08-07-2018, 07:49 PM
Restorium,


Good point about the power fluctuations -- and the subject of a couple of upgrades that I have done here in my coach. I have replaced the main transfer switch with one that also incorporates a surge protector...this has a higher rating than those units you put in line at the pedestal where you plug in your shore power cord, and it is not subject to theft or to forgetting to use it. I also upgraded my inverter to a pure sine wave Magnum unit which is better for electronics and for non-resistive loads like motors. Of course my original equipment fridge had been running on the old systems for several years before these upgrades, so no way to know how much of a factor that may have been in the temperature regulation issues experienced to date.


One thing for sure -- I never let the inverter fully discharge the 4 golf cart batteries that run it when it is providing power when the coach is off shore power and the diesel generator is not running as that could be the equivalent of a power 'brown-out' in terms of proper system AC voltage.


Chuck

riverofcode
08-21-2018, 03:15 PM
Not sure what size your windows are in your slide but I replaced my GE by taking out the forward road side window over where my sofa was in my slide on my T40c and not the windshield. I had a friend lift the old one out using a tractor with forks on the bucket and a small "workbench" sitting inside to lay it down on. It only took 3 of us about an hour to swap it out and get the new one in. Two guys inside and one lifting and walking the fridge forward on the forks until it was mostly inside. The hardest part was getting it lifted up the 12-13 inches into the hole in the wall in a narrow hallway area.

Chuck v
08-21-2018, 07:55 PM
Scott,


Fully understand the issue with lifting the fridge to cabinet height and fitting it in with so little clearance on all sides. In my coach it is clear that the doors need to be off the refrigerator to even orientate it correctly just to begin to fit it into the cabinet space given the close spacing of the opposing wall -- it is just under 29 inches from the cabinet stiles to the opposite wall where the door to the tank level indicators are located.



Interesting that you note the T40C model had a driver side window that was large enough...I never considered wrestling the large, heavy fridge through that given the furniture, slide, etc. Did you do this with the slide extended? Did you remove the sleeper couch? Was the "bench" it rested on when coming through the window placed where the couch was? Seems very doable the way you describe it, thanks for letting the forum know how you approached this issue.


What model/brand did you choose for your replacement? Was it full depth or counter depth?


Chuck

riverofcode
08-21-2018, 08:19 PM
Chuck,

We removed the doors from both the one we were taking out and the one we were installing. (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Whirlpool-21-4-cu-ft-Side-by-Side-Refrigerator-with-Ice-Maker-Stainless-Steel-ENERGY-STAR/1000432083)

I removed the forward window on the slide above the sofa. I hopefully attached an image of the side. That is not the location I did the work but don't have a picture of when we did it. The window is about 6 1/2 feet above grade once you get it leveled to extend the slide. There is a lot of room in the front salon area and plenty of headroom to stand the fridge back up in the middle of the floor.

We protected the floors I replaced recently using 1/4" luan plywood.

We removed the sofa and have replaced it with a chair so that was gone. We set this (https://www.walmart.com/ip/BLACK-DECKER-28-3-4-Portable-Project-Center-WM425/21272991) on the slide about 2 feet from the window.

Slide was in the extended position. We placed both units on their backs to move them. I parked the coach so I had lots of room in the driveway next to the slide area. My friend lifted the fridge up next to the coach just above the window bottom height. To protect the window hole bottom I cut a rectangular plastic downspout to length and cut one side off to slip over the bottom of the opening. That protected the wall from dragging the fridge across it. We kept the tractor and forks around 2-3 feet from the side so no fear of hitting the coach walls.

This sounds way more complicated that it actually was. :)

Sudsy
07-21-2019, 02:13 PM
Hello all;


We were able to get the old Dometic side by side and the new Whirlpool



https://www.lowes.com/pd/Whirlpool-21-4-cu-ft-Side-by-Side-Refrigerator-with-Ice-Maker-Fingerprint-Resistant-Stainless-Steel/1000332339



in and out of the passengers window after removing the window. It was quite an operation. Had a weight lifter friend lay on the fully reclined passenger seat and used a fork lift to slide the old one out on his chest and we loaded the new one with all the shipping material intact by putting it in bottom first on it's side3. The handles were packed inside the unit so the front was smooth. He just slid the thing off of the forks and with help from inside they stood it up. While two guys reinstalled and sealed the passenger window we unpacked the fridge. They youngsters were able to lift the thing up the 12 inches or so and it slid right in. Oh yea, we had top remove some of the original trin since this fridge goes all the way to the ceiling.



Now I am a little concerned with rattles from the glass shelves. Also just the glass shelves themselves. I have installed a childproof drawer/cabinet latch that just sticks on to give me a little bit better feeling about the doors staying closed. I think my first attempt at a fix is going to be some clear Gorrilla tape tabs (small) on each shelf on top about halfway back. If they give me too much trouble I will have plastic or plexiglass cut to replace them. There are only three or four.



I have sealed the refrigerator outside access panel with aluminum tape and added a sheet of 1 inch insulation behind the fridge.



The original gas line for the old unit comes up about 2 inches inside the outer wall alongside the water line for the ice maker. Right now it is still there and the fridge sticks out about 4 inches further than the original unit. If we decide we can't live with the fridge sticking out I will remove the line and re-route the water line and push the fridge back the additional 2 inches.



Here are some applicable pictures. Wish I had thought to video the job.


Sudsy