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Old 06-26-2017, 10:07 PM   #1
riverofcode
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Default House battery charge failure

Hi all,

Last Friday my wife and I purchased a 2008 Tour Master T40c and drove it home. When we got to the dealer, some 400 miles away, one of the things he was having issues with were "house batteries were bad, we're replacing them now". They went about replacing the 4 6v batteries in the nose of the coach with 4 12v ones. Yeah, they don't exactly fit but I will sort that out. Feeling good we head home with the generator running so we could cool the coach with the roof A/C units. When we stopped for the night at a Walmart we left the generator running expecting to be all happy in the morning. About 4am the first A/C shut down... then the rest of them in series. Then the CO detector started beeping...guess we lost 12v house power. The fridge was still happy though and the Xantrax panel up in the front cabinet was showing a "float charge" and battery status was just fine. I tinker around a bit with tools I just bought but can't get it working. By this time we're up and decide to just hit the road. I fire up the engine and drive off. We stopped some time later and the battery status panel in the hallway now shows batteries nearing 80%. We make it home in one piece and plug into shore power figuring that all will be well by the next day. Nope. House batteries ... and now chassis batteries are nearing dead. Can't start engine anymore. Generator is more than happy to fire up at the click of the button though. I also noticed that the one battery link strap on the chassis batteries was not healthy and will be replacing that. Looks like it had a loose connection at some point and got hot under the post cap before we even picked it up. I need to find a replacement for that cable.

Summary: Apparently the generator is not charging the 2 house batteries in the rear compartment, shore power is also not charging those 2 house batteries, I found out in this forum that chassis batteries are only charged by the engine(seems stupid and I will be getting a Trik-L-Start).

Question is: Do I start at the converter or ATS under the bed? I would expect that the Xantrax is just fine up front since those batteries seem just fine.

Sorry for the long post, I had to vent.
Thanks,
Scott
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Old 06-30-2017, 11:30 AM   #2
Frutza
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You need to see what's charging, use a voltmeter while unplugged engine off and Everything else off. Check your battery voltage then plug in and turn your Xantrex charger on and see if voltage starts to come up.
And they may have missed a wire or hooked something up wrong, by removing Leads one at a time you can id what's coach, genny and inverter and label them.
A B.I.R.D will allow chassis and coach to charge together
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:53 PM   #3
Chuck v
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That dealer is really clueless...and may be at the root of some if not all of your problems.

I have a 2007 T40 C and can tell you what each battery bank is for, how it is charged and what to expect when not connected to shore power, etc.

1) The four golf cart batteries in the front under the windshield are wired in series / parallel to make a high capacity 12 volt storage bank to power the Xantrex inverter that supplies 110 AC to SOME of the loads in the coach like the refrigerator, microwave, etc. This set of batteries is charged on shore power through the Xantrex itself.

2) The diesel starting batteries (two 12 volt units in parallel so it still is 12 volts total...) in the right rear compartment near the rear axle only are used to start the motor. Normally these are only charged from the motor driven alternator -- but on my coach I have added a quality float charger that also can keep these topped off from shore power.

3) The "house" batteries are the remaining two 12 volt deep cycle batteries, also in parallel, in the same compartment as the diesel engine cranking batteries. These batteries supply all the low voltage lighting in the coach when the shore power is not providing derived 12 VDC from the 12 volt Converter. The 12V Converter is what charges these batteries.

It is also useful to understand how the transfer switches are wired in your T40 C... The Shore power comes into a transfer switch that is under the bed adjacent to the location of the Converter. The AC from the shore power (230v, 50 amp) goes Through a second transfer switch associated with the Diesel Generator and from there to two classes of loads. The primary loads are those AC appliances that do not run off the inverter (clothes dryer, air conditioners...) and the next set of AC loads are those that can be run from the inverter. Yes, the Xantrex inverter has its own internal transfer switch as well -- so if AC is present at its input it passes it to the loads and charges the golf cart battery bank. When AC is not present at the Xantrex inverter (no shore power AND diesel generator is not running...) then the inverter makes AC 110 from the 12 battery bank and supplies loads that are important, like the residential refrigerator.

The load disconnect switches at the step entry well of your coach select if the engine start batteries are turned off and if the house batteries are turned off -- these two switches control high current contactors in the rear compartment next to those batteries. These controls are clearly labeled "Coach" and "Chassis" with coach = house and with chassis = engine. Mine are always left on as I live in this coach. For long term storage you would turn these off.

You likely have more questions so please ask...

Chuck
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Old 07-02-2017, 12:54 PM   #4
riverofcode
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Thanks for the walk thru. I have fixed the chassis harness so that it is connecting properly and was able to put a charger on them to get the engine to fire up. I already bought a Trik-L-Start module and will be putting that on after I figure out the house battery charging issue. No sense in making my life more difficult. I think the place to connect that is the hot sides of each of the respective disconnect solenoids in the rear bay.

This other transfer switch you mention "...The AC from the shore power (230v, 50 amp) goes Through a second transfer switch associated with the Diesel Generator and from there to two classes of loads. ...", where is it and how do I go about testing it? I am well versed in electricity/electronics and have a couple DMMs to poke around with. (ham radio operator) A schematic would be helpful.

I found the ATS under the bed and it seems to be working properly. Meaning it flips from shore to generator when shore is remove and generator is fired up, then back again when reversed. The green led comes on inside it like the diagram mentions. The charge converter under the bed has power at its 110v outlet and I did notice it humming at one point, although not as much as I would expect since the batteries were low. I have not crawled under there in the last couple days to take its cover off. When I probed the DC output I did get something near 12v but not sure if that was from the batteries or the converter. I tested the 2 fuses near the DC output and both are good.

One thing I did notice is that after/while the engine was running I had 12v in the coach for lights and such and the "Test" switch in the panel in the hallway was showing a couple leds for battery status. All the 12v fuses in both panels under the fridge are good.
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Old 07-02-2017, 02:07 PM   #5
Chuck v
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Scott,

Sounds like you are making good progress. I did make a nomenclature mistake in my first post as the second transfer switch associated with the inverter loads is in the Xantrex inverter and not the Onan generator...

I don't have any schematics specific to this coach and would dearly like to obtain them for my own use. I do have the information that came with my generator, and since I have replaced my shore power transfer switch with one that has a surge protection and GFI built in and I have replaced my Xantrex with a Magnum pure sine inverter my data on those would not help you directly.

It does sound like your 12 volt converter may have some issues -- or perhaps your house batteries are old/damaged from their not being kept charged prior to your getting the coach. My T40C has the Intelipower 9100 series converter which may be the one on yours as well -- the manual I have for it is pretty sparse but does have a troubleshooting table that may help. Let me know if you do not have this document and I will try to scan in the table... If you replace these house batteries make sure that you replace both at the same time -- see the last paragraph below.

I can't imagine what (if anything) the dealer was thinking when they put 4 each 12 volt batteries in the front of your coach to run the Inverter and start the generator. Your inverter requires 12 input, so if wired appropriately all four of these dealer installed batteries would be in parallel. The factory configuration was 4 each 6 volt high capacity golf cart batteries connected in series/parallel to achieve a terminal voltage of 12 volts -- but at least with a higher amp-hr capacity. Even this is a compromise in terms of charge balancing and battery life. As you may know, lead acid batteries are very difficult to charge in parallel (the fully charged cells have a low impedance and a discharged cell has a high impedance, so the current needed to charge the depleted cells actually goes through the fully charged cells instead...) There is a practical reason that electric vehicles have all cells in series. At least in a series stack the same current flows through each cell and the majority of the voltage drop is across the most discharged cell with the highest impedance so the power transfer is going where it will do the most good.


Notice that the engine batteries in our coaches are also two 12 volt batteries in parallel, and the house batteries in many coaches and certainly ours are again two 12 volt batteries in parallel. This is not ideal, and it is imperative that when you change any battery in a parallel configuration that you change both...keeping vendor brand, model, capacity and manufacture date as closely matched as possible for acceptable service.

Chuck
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Old 07-02-2017, 02:38 PM   #6
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Yes, the converter is the Intelipower 9180. I need to dig thru the books that I got with the RV and see if I have a book on it. Considering the 4 new 12v batteries they put in, what I might do is pull them out and put 2 of them in the rear and then go get 4 new 6v batteries to put back in the front. The Xantrex control panel flips between float charge and absorption charge when I happen to take a look at it from time to time as I walk in and out. That would leave me with 2 brand new 12v batteries to deal with in some manner. I have a trickle charger I can keep them happy with for now uninstalled.
My little battery maintainer has some smarts built in that claims the existing 12v house batteries are "bad"...now how it determines that is beyond me. I assume it tries to charge them and then tests them or does a current check during a charge cycle.

I think tomorrow I may look at moving them around. If I do I may just leave 2 of them hooked up in the front for load until I get the 6v'ers. We are in the process of removing cabinet doors and flooring so she can paint and I can lay down new flooring so we aren't using it anyway.
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Old 07-02-2017, 02:54 PM   #7
Chuck v
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Scott,

Yes it sure points to your present house batteries as being end-or-life. Can you see any date codes on them? Most auto supply stores will be able to check a battery for pass/fail...but often this is based on CCA which is not an important parameter for your house batteries (but crucial for your engine cranking batteries...) If the dealer's shade tree mechanics found 12 volt batteries that would physically fit where the 6 volt ones were originally I would doubt they would have the capacity you would want in a house battery, but they would get you through your remodeling. You need deep cycle batteries in this location.

The 9180 is not the most sophisticated of float chargers, so your electrolyte levels in the house batteries may be low (or have been for some time in the past if the 'dealer' just topped them off recently -- this could be another cause of failure of the house battery charging and use you are observing.

Lastly, on my Magnum inverter there are several programming choices for battery chemistry types (flooded lead-acid, AGM, Gel-Cel, etc.) as well as the capacity of the stack so it can choose how aggressively and to what terminal voltage to charge and maintain things. I suspect that the Xantrex is similar as I recall... You will want to get the 6 volt 220 amp-hour cells renewed as soon as you can.

Chuck
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:32 PM   #8
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The 4 new 12v batteries they put up front appear to be group 27 deep cycle batteries based on a couple stickers and the CCA value. The rear house batteries don't seem to have any markings other than a single sticker that reads "F17" over a "BXP". None of the house batteries on board have the date codes marked. What should the 2 rear house batteries be ideally?

The 2 chassis batteries are group 31 but also with no date codes.

The 6v batteries they pulled out were "Interstate GC2-XHD-UTL". I assume any equivalent would suffice.
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Old 07-02-2017, 04:56 PM   #9
Chuck v
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Group 31 is the correct size for the engine cranking batteries if they are at least 950-975 CCA each.

House batteries should be at least group 27 size, and if you can fit group 31 DEEP CYCLE batteries (not the cranking specific style of the engine batteries...) that would be even better.

The group 27 batteries your friendly dealer put in are probably going to work OK as "house batteries". For contrast, the 6 volt batteries are at least 205 AH per 12 volt stack and the XDH you had were 232 AH when new. Because these are used in series to make 12 volts and the front of your coach allows two parallel banks of these two 6v stacks, your inverter would have 464 AH at its disposal. Using 12 v group 27 batteries all in parallel gives 4x approximately 90 AH or only 360 AH total -- quite a large deficit over the designed configuration...

Clearly you can also use these golf cart batteries for house batteries by stacking two for a 12 volt 232 AH bank. This is likely more than you can obtain with two 12 volt batteries of any group that would fit, but you need to modify the cabling and hold down brackets.

Family Motor Coaching is a good source for information and you may wish to join their organization and subscribe to their publication. Here is a battery specific article from some years ago that still has useful facts:
https://www.fmcmagazine.com/images/s...ce_jan2012.pdf

Chuck
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:20 AM   #10
riverofcode
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Default Charging update

Well, I finally got some spare time and I think I sorted out my house battery charge issues.
  • Pulled likely bad house batteries from rear
  • Moved 2 of the new 12v batteries from front to the rear
  • I have 4 6v batteries coming to replace the remaining 2 12v up front.
  • Replaced 3 30amp fuses on charge controller that they must have blown
  • Added the Trik-L-Start module in rear electrical bay

Checked the system status when I first did the swap and it showed 3/4 charge. Today I am up to full charge.

Now to sort out other stuff like inner wheel bearing seals on the steer tires. I am very happy to have traded in my old Hurricane gasser but didn't expect this much repair and I didn't notice some of the issues that I should have. Frankly, the Hurricane had its own issues that I am not sure I would have been able to fix.
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:37 PM   #11
Chuck v
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Most likely the old house batteries had one of more internally shorted cell which would explain both the low level of charge and the blown fuses in the converter. You are well on your way to getting all the batteries sorted out for condition and proper sizing. It was a lot to swallow on what should have been a coach sold in a ready to use condition -- and the multiple 12 volt batteries in the front where the 6 volt ones belong indicate that the dealer that resold it to you is one that you should not frequent. Keep the faith and enjoy the coach...

Chuck
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Old 08-04-2017, 06:47 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck v View Post
That dealer is really clueless...and may be at the root of some if not all of your problems.

I have a 2007 T40 C and can tell you what each battery bank is for, how it is charged and what to expect when not connected to shore power, etc.

1) The four golf cart batteries in the front under the windshield are wired in series / parallel to make a high capacity 12 volt storage bank to power the Xantrex inverter that supplies 110 AC to SOME of the loads in the coach like the refrigerator, microwave, etc. This set of batteries is charged on shore power through the Xantrex itself.

2) The diesel starting batteries (two 12 volt units in parallel so it still is 12 volts total...) in the right rear compartment near the rear axle only are used to start the motor. Normally these are only charged from the motor driven alternator -- but on my coach I have added a quality float charger that also can keep these topped off from shore power.

3) The "house" batteries are the remaining two 12 volt deep cycle batteries, also in parallel, in the same compartment as the diesel engine cranking batteries. These batteries supply all the low voltage lighting in the coach when the shore power is not providing derived 12 VDC from the 12 volt Converter. The 12V Converter is what charges these batteries.

It is also useful to understand how the transfer switches are wired in your T40 C... The Shore power comes into a transfer switch that is under the bed adjacent to the location of the Converter. The AC from the shore power (230v, 50 amp) goes Through a second transfer switch associated with the Diesel Generator and from there to two classes of loads. The primary loads are those AC appliances that do not run off the inverter (clothes dryer, air conditioners...) and the next set of AC loads are those that can be run from the inverter. Yes, the Xantrex inverter has its own internal transfer switch as well -- so if AC is present at its input it passes it to the loads and charges the golf cart battery bank. When AC is not present at the Xantrex inverter (no shore power AND diesel generator is not running...) then the inverter makes AC 110 from the 12 battery bank and supplies loads that are important, like the residential refrigerator.

The load disconnect switches at the step entry well of your coach select if the engine start batteries are turned off and if the house batteries are turned off -- these two switches control high current contactors in the rear compartment next to those batteries. These controls are clearly labeled "Coach" and "Chassis" with coach = house and with chassis = engine. Mine are always left on as I live in this coach. For long term storage you would turn these off.

You likely have more questions so please ask...

Chuck
X2 a great post Chuck with clear explanations, every owner should read this one.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverofcode View Post
Hi all,

Last Friday my wife and I purchased a 2008 Tour Master T40c and drove it home. When we got to the dealer, some 400 miles away, one of the things he was having issues with were "house batteries were bad, we're replacing them now". They went about replacing the 4 6v batteries in the nose of the coach with 4 12v ones. Yeah, they don't exactly fit but I will sort that out. Feeling good we head home with the generator running so we could cool the coach with the roof A/C units. When we stopped for the night at a Walmart we left the generator running expecting to be all happy in the morning. About 4am the first A/C shut down... then the rest of them in series. Then the CO detector started beeping...guess we lost 12v house power. The fridge was still happy though and the Xantrax panel up in the front cabinet was showing a "float charge" and battery status was just fine. I tinker around a bit with tools I just bought but can't get it working. By this time we're up and decide to just hit the road. I fire up the engine and drive off. We stopped some time later and the battery status panel in the hallway now shows batteries nearing 80%. We make it home in one piece and plug into shore power figuring that all will be well by the next day. Nope. House batteries ... and now chassis batteries are nearing dead. Can't start engine anymore. Generator is more than happy to fire up at the click of the button though. I also noticed that the one battery link strap on the chassis batteries was not healthy and will be replacing that. Looks like it had a loose connection at some point and got hot under the post cap before we even picked it up. I need to find a replacement for that cable.

Summary: Apparently the generator is not charging the 2 house batteries in the rear compartment, shore power is also not charging those 2 house batteries, I found out in this forum that chassis batteries are only charged by the engine(seems stupid and I will be getting a Trik-L-Start).

Question is: Do I start at the converter or ATS under the bed? I would expect that the Xantrax is just fine up front since those batteries seem just fine.

Sorry for the long post, I had to vent.
Thanks,
Scott
Start at Converter (i.e. CONVERTER/ CHARGER/ FUSE BOX), Usually also has the 120-volt BREAKERS, FED from the ATS, which selects 120-volt SOURCE. Both shoreline and generator should charge coach battery through CONVERTER/ CHARGER. Possible tripped 120v BREAKER; Possible blown REVERSE POLARITY fuse for ON CONVERTER, OR blown 50A charger FUSE AT CONVERTER, or blown FUSIBLE LINK at battery or BATTERY SWITCH= OFF (I read some are unlabeled wall switches near step or near battery?)
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