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01-02-2009, 03:06 PM
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#1
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6
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Jumping in head first
Hello to All,
My wife and I are middle fifties newbies who have decided to jump in head first into full-timing. We are not RV's nor are we even experienced campers, we are however very experienced travellers both for vacations and work throughout much of the world. We are motivated to visit all those places we wished we had more than a week or two to explore.
So far my research has led me to Gulf Stream and in particular the Sun Voyager 8389 primarily because of the floor plan which my wife likes over all others we have researched. Questions still unanswered at this time are diesel over gas or new over used.
I'm sure many more questions will crop up over time, hope to be on the road in 12-18 months. I look forward to the information and support of this group and this great forum.
Regards,
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NvR2L8
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01-02-2009, 03:54 PM
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#2
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Monroe
Posts: 34
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Wow, where to start? First off welcome to the great world of RVing! Single best piece of advice I can give you is, slow down, take your time when making your decision; We dove in head first and bought a brand new Endura (which we love) and have loved ever since we got it; Great RV, excellent power and towing; We went with a Gas engine because they are quiet and in my opinion the extra money the dealers charge for diesel doesn't make sense; by the time my gas engine wears out I'll probably be six feet underground! New vs Used? We went new because I've got a hang up about buying used stuff; Unfortunately, now we want to upgrade and after only 2.5 years we are "upside down" on the loan by 20k, so it'll cost us 20k just to get rid of the current unit and with the new units priced just over cost the dealers can't do anything for us; Which is ok, I guess it's life's way of telling us to just be happy with what we have; Second best advice I can give you is allow plenty of shake down time before your first real "trip"; Our endura was the top of the line Gulfstream Class "C" at the time and yet we made at least 5 trips back to the dealer for warrant work; Since then we have talked to tons of RV'ers and Gulfstream is not unique in this regard and it doesn't matter if you spend 110k or 500k, they've all got bugs that need to be worked out; Other than that, I say just take your time, slow down, and enjoy the ride!
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Jeff.
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01-03-2009, 12:27 PM
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#3
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6
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Re: Jumping in head first
Thanks for the comments amman1775, "Jumping in head first" was in reference to our being newbies to RVing and camping. We have actually been researching the lifestyle for more than a year now and so far have not changed our minds.
I have read much of the pro's and con's of diesel vs. gas and personally I'm with you on the gas side, the only concern I have is about towing power in and around mountainous regions which we plan to spend a lot of time in. Is there a serious comprimise here? We plan to have a small two seater as our tow-along, and bty can you explain to a newbie what "toad" means.
As far as new vs. used my initial thoughts are to go used say 2 or 3 years, buy from a dealer and stay in the dealer area for a couple of months while taking extended excurisions from that base. If there are any "shake down" issues we won't be that far from returning for service. I'm thinking this is a reasonable plan, but feel free to comment.
Regards,
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NvR2L8
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01-03-2009, 04:27 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 305
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Re: Jumping in head first
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarFarers
...As far as new vs. used my initial thoughts are to go used say 2 or 3 years, buy from a dealer and stay in the dealer area for a couple of months while taking extended excurisions from that base. If there are any "shake down" issues we won't be that far from returning for service...
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Buying 2-4 years old helps get you past the sharp initial drop in value that new units take in the first few years.
Buying used from a dealer may not necessarily be better than buying used from a private party. Dealers are paid by the manufacturer to fix warranty items on new units, but any warranty on a used unit is the responsibility of the selling dealer. If they offer a warranty on a used unit, it will probably be short and accompanied by fine print. Buying from a private seller may save you enough money to make the lack of a short used-vehicle warranty worthwhile.
BTW -- that model (8389) is what my wife would really love for us to trade up to...
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01-04-2009, 06:00 PM
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#5
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6
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New vs. Used
Although I am leaning towards used I cannot see a measureable difference between Private or Dealer. Current listings from dealers are asking at the lower end of the NADA scale the with little or no private offerings.
Being that this will be my first RV purchase I think I would be more comfortable going with an established dealer.
The 8389 is the only floor plan that got a rise out of my wife and see as she will be living in close quarters with me she might as well be happy about it!
Regards,
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NvR2L8
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01-06-2009, 07:38 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Monroe
Posts: 246
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Greetings! "Toad" is the vehicle being towed. We had a Sun Voyager and traded up to a diesel Tour Master. Why? Boy, that's a good question! The TM ride is more stable and, in our opinion, easier to handle. That consideration was paramount to us in making the decision to go with the diesel. Of course, the extra room is a great plus. Charlie
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2007 Tour Master T-40C
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01-06-2009, 08:02 PM
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#7
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6
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Re: Jumping in head first
Ha! I thought it was an acronym of some kind and I couldn't break the code! Boy, lot's to learn. Chas. do you have an opinion on deisel vs. gas as it pertains to hauling power as I mentioned above.
All information greatly received.
Regards,
__________________
NvR2L8
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01-07-2009, 08:11 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Monroe
Posts: 246
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I can't compare gas vs diesel hauling power as we didn't tow with the Sun Voyager. I can say, though, that the Tour Master effortlessly climbed the Colorado Rockies this past October while towing the Tucson. I wouldn't say we were going the speed limit, but it was a steady ascent. Charlie
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2007 Tour Master T-40C
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01-07-2009, 08:30 PM
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#9
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6
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Re: Jumping in head first
I found this great thread over on RV.net it does get a little too technical for a newbie at times....but what I take away from it is that it's a 50/50 deal unless your planning to do some major haulin. Sooooo I think it's gas for me.
I realize that this is a long thread but if you are pondering the Gasoline versus a Diesel based on power consideration or are wondering about adding an after market performance enhancing kit to a Gasoline engine to close the power equation it might be worth a read. This thread is intended to be an addendum to the First Time Buyer... sticky.
The question of a Gasoline versus Diesel is a topic that seems to have no correct answer. But one that comes up frequently Here is some food for thought, after you have done some looking post questions about specifics and you will get plenty of feedback.
Diesel can have more torque and HP but that does not always translate to better performance and higher MPG. There are some configurations of Gasoline powered Motorhomes that will out perform some Diesel coaches due to weight to power ratio, gearing, rear axle ratio. There are some diesel powered configuration where power is not an issue with any grade or load.
In terms of reliability Diesel engines are constructed to have a longer life span but for most folks and I mean most, the reliability and longevity is sort of a non issue due to the amount of mileage and the length of ownership. Diesel's will be somewhat more costly to maintain.
The longer and heavier a coach is the more need there is for power. There is also the issue of carrying capability. So you will want to focus in on what size motorhome then look at the weight carrying abilities of your choices.
The modern Gasoline power trains and chassis have evolved tremendously in the past several years and the expectation that they will continue. If there is a Gasoline powered motorhome that meets your fancy it is worth a long hard look.
There are some benefits to going diesel powered other than fuel mileage ( which is not usually anything to write home about) A DP pusher will generally be quieter in the cockpit area when underway and will have the benefit of air suspension and Brakes.
Another minor benefit of a DP is that in many cases A DP will have a much longer range between fuel stops due to the size of the fuel tanks.
If you are looking at a length of the 35 or less then I would be looking at A Gasoline and over that you are in sort of a mixed bag up to about 38 feet then you really want to be leaning in the direction of a Diesel simply because of the torque to handle the weight.
You will need to sort out what you are looking for in terms of length and CCC plus the price range you are wanting to be at. A diesel will be a significant increase in price. Drive both and then figure out if the added cost is worth it to you.
So what does this all mean?
Some gasoline powered coaches will be challenged going up some steep or long grades but then so will some diesel powered coaches. The real question is so what? How much time will one spend going up steep grades?
There are aftermarket kits that can enhance performance such as the Banks System or the gear Vendors add on to the none Allison transmissions that adds extra gears. The Banks after market performance enhancements are available for both Gasoline and Diesel powered units. I have installed both in the past and still have a F350 4x4 that has both the Banks system and the Gear Vendors. The addition of a Banks or a competitive alternative will yield additional available power both in terms of Horsepower and Torque. The question of whether the additional cost of these systems will yield enough performance enhancement of warrant the cost.
In looking at the performance curves relative to the 8.1 on the Banks web site it should be noted that for an 8.1 the optimum gain is at a fairly high RPM which should be taken into account relative to cockpit noise. Using the most optimistic gain estimates you could be looking of 16 to 23% depending on rpm's in terms of torque. The RPM range will be between 3800 and 4800. The most material gain will be on acceleration especially on on ramps and passing.
In terms of pulling power up grades there will be improvement there as well. But lets compare getting 25,000 pounds up a grade with a banks enhanced gasoline 8.1 with getting 30,000 pounds up the grade with a Cat 330 powered diesel. Looking at the chart below the 8.1 with the Banks system will have to move 45 pounds for every foot pound of torque versus the Cat which will have to move 35 pounds for every foot pound even at the heavier weight. You can also see on the chart below that at the same weight the diesel will have even a greater advantage. However that is not the end of the story.
The W24 chassis comes with a 5.86 rear ratio which is nominally in the range of 20% higher than the typical rear ratio of a cat 330 equipped chassis so the 29 percent more weight per foot pound of torque available with the cat 330 is down to about a 9 percent difference in power to move the weight provided the gasoline unit is 5,000 pounds lighter. If the same weight then the cat will have about a 25% advantage in the ratio of weight to torque to move it even with the performance enhancement on the Gasoline engine. How much difference will this make to you? The only way to answer is to drive the same course with the two different power trains and see for your self.
Keep in mind that you will more than likely be testing a stock Gasoline engine and that adding a Banks or similar performance enhancing package will yield somewhere in the neighborhood of a 20 % improvement. What this means is that the performance enhancement kit will offset the weight that you are going down the road with towing a dinghy and with all your stuff on board. So if the performance suits you and you like the rest of the coach the Gasoline powered motorhome ought to be on your short list since it is possible to add the performance enhancement kit. The added expense of a performance enhancement kit will be far less that going the diesel route. The diesel as tested will be just about as good as it will be so keep in mind that the added wieght of towing a dinghy and carrying all your stuff may impact the performance you experienced during the test drive without the additional weight.
Torque.........455.. 560... ..660.....860.. 1050.. 1200
Weight
20,000......... 44... 36........30........23......19......17
25,000......... 55... 45........38........29......24......21
30,000......... 66... 54........45........35......29......25
35,000......... 77... 63........53........41......33......29
40,000......... 88... 71........61........47......38......33
Pounds to move per increment of torque
455 = Stock 8.1 Torque
560 = Banks equipped 8.1 Torque
660 = Cummins ISB 300 Torque
860 = Cat 330 Torque
1050 = Cummins ISC 350 Torque
1200 = Cummins ISL400 Torque
So the answer is yes these after market systems will help off set the power differential between a Gasoline Powered versus a Diesel Powered unit.The difference in actual performance getting that weight up the grade while not be as much as the chart would indicate since the Gasoline powered coach will have a higher rear end ratio and the higher revving gasoline engine to be able to take the advantage of the higher rear gearing.
One other issue to take into account with a normally aspirated engine (non turbo) is that the air density will have an impact on the power generated by the engine. "On a hot day, or at high altitude, or on a moist day, the air is less dense. A reduction in air density reduces the engine horsepower." Link So on those hot muggy days a non turbo engine will have less power than on a cool dry day. Adding altitude to the equation will also rob power on non turbo assisted engines. Virtually all modern diesels in today's motorhome will have a turbo as standard equipment. The power loss in most situations is not really significant. The loss is in the order of 1 % per thousand feet up to three thousand feet then about 3 % per thousand feet there after.
There is one advantage to a diesel worth considering and that is the auxiliary braking that is available via either an exhaust brake or an engine brake. To my way of thinking the availability of auxiliary braking is a far more important advantage than any extra power. Having said that, the perspective I have is that at times it is convenient and others it is a margin of safety that I really appreciate. The thing to keep in focus that it is possible to adjust ones driving pattern to proceed in a safe manner without the need or desire of an auxiliary brake.
A diesel powered coach with a power to weight ratio that is superior to a gasoline powered unit will be able to pull grades at a faster rate and descend down grades more aggressively if equipped with an auxiliary brake. An engine brake being superior to an exhaust brake. But again the question is so what? Just what percentage of the on the road time will be spent going up and down grades where this is really a material issue?
There are Gasoline coaches that will out perform some diesel coaches in terms of pulling grades. As I mentioned the longer and heavier a coach gets the more that the need of a diesel comes into play. In this case the word need is a euphemism for desirable. Feeding that desire does have a price tag. The issue is determining the need based on the size coach and then working through the coast versus the benefit.
The only way to know is to figure out what you want in terms of size and floor plan which will include the added weight of sliders. If you are a driver instead of a parker and you want a large coach then a diesel may be the better choice if you are a parker then it may make more sense to go with a Gasoline powered unit in terms of price.
Our needs were such that a 40 footer was our choice which got us into a Diesel. For our traveling partner a 32 footer Gasoline unit is the perfect size he is as happy with his choice as we are with ours. We have traveled together extensively in mountainous country in all but the steepest of grades he is able to maintain the same speed with his vortec 8.1 as we are with our ISL 400. While I think he would like to have a larger fuel tank and would benefit from an auxiliary brake he is as happy with his coach as were are with ours. Our ride may be a little smother due to the air ride and the cockpit noise level lower when climbing grades but to him those issues are not enough to justify the price differential of his coach versus ours.
With the innovations in chassis design of gasoline powered coaches and the addition of 5 and 6 speed transmissions given the price differential of going the diesel route I would look long and hard at the gasoline powered coaches. The only way to know is to pick your size and floor plan then do a test drive.
One thing that you will find is for the most part all of us like what we have but there is always something "better". I would discount those who disparage one type versus the other... Or makes extravagant claims not supported by any logic of the physics involved in moving weight. But I would pay attention to those that take the time to go beyond this is bad and that is good.
I also think that we at times get lost in generalities so I would suggest that you get in the ball park with generalities but focus on specifics when you are in decision mode.
In general a diesel pusher will be quieter in the cockpit area, will offer a smooth ride due to air suspension. Some diesel pushers will offer pass through storage. Most diesel pushers will have some form of auxiliary braking either in terms of an exhaust or and engine brake. (Diesel Engine auxiliary Brakes)
In general At some price point the interior fit and finish of a Diesel Pusher will be a step up... But for the upper end of the Gasoline powered units and the entry level diesel and up to some point along the DP price curve I do not believe there is much if any difference.
In General the more expensive DP's will offer additional amenities beyond what is available on Gasoline powered motorhomes.
In General Diesel pushers will have a longer range due to larger fuel tanks.
Here is a thread The power equation...Horsepower- Torque -Gear Ratio- Weight for those that want to ponder on this issue further.
JohnnyT
* This post was edited 10/16/06 12:12pm by JohnnyT *
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NvR2L8
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01-10-2009, 04:53 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 305
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Excellent post, JohnnyT. Thanks!
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01-12-2009, 04:50 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 572
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WOW JohnnyT,
A very interesting post/analysis. I'm driving a 8.1 gasoline Sun Voyager. I do not regret the decision. I have been in a couple situations where auxiliary braking would have been helpful - once nearly disasterous as I lost my brakes to fade & had nothing.... I saved it, but had to throw my shorts out.
Also, the Allison shifts way down on long uphill pulls. If I try to maintain speed, it blows transmission fluid (not a good thing). So, I just have to be content with a lower travel speed on ascent. It seems to be more a function of the transmission rather than the engine?
How about your views on Deisel Pusher Vs. Front Engine Deisel? I travel with a couple with a FRED & they can't hear themselves think up front, for all the noise.
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01-16-2009, 07:01 AM
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#12
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6
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Re: Jumping in head first
Ok, looks like I'll be focusing on a 2 or 3 year old Sun Voyager # 8389 with gas power train.
Next question is the "Toad" as we will be getting a new car this year (the only one's in North America it seems from the news) is there a preferred class of car for towing? My preference would be for a two seater sport job, but I'm open to any and all suggestions.
Are some cars better as Toads than others, automatic or manual tranny?
Thanks
__________________
NvR2L8
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01-16-2009, 08:08 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 572
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I tow an '03 4x4 Chevy Blazer (no longer available). It is equiped with automatic transmission & the Autotrac transfer case. Autotrac has a neutral position & reconfigured lubricant pump, allowing the vehicle to be towed w/all 4 wheels on the ground. GM's "Instatrac" has no provision to allow for being towed with all wheels down. I don't know if General Motors continues to supply both versions.
I recently purchased a Toyota Tacoma pickup truck. It can-NOT be towed with any factory options. There are after-market devices to convert your vehicle, & there is always the option of a tow-dolly or trailer (not my choice however).
You must refer (very carefully) to the owner's manual,,, and do NOT trust what your car salesman tells you! They often confuse "towing capacity" with "being-towed".
There are RV sites (which someone will surely provide the URL) that thouroughly list make/model/year of vehicles that are towable.
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01-16-2009, 03:07 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 305
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I was probably going to get a Honda CRV as our next towable vehicle. But this year, the Honda Fit is towable. I would strongly consider that for our next one. Those are the only two Hondas that are specified towable by the Honda Corp. The Fit sounds ideal for us, since we consider the towed car as a little sight-seeing car that doesn't have to be a full-size comfortable cruiser.
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