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Old 11-11-2019, 09:20 AM   #1
Delta
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Angry Cummins starter solenoid is stuck on.

2001 Friedship, 300 HP Cummins, Spartan chassis. The starter solenoid stuck on when I started the engine. Lots of nasty noise.Managed to pull battery cables to stop it. Key would not, Battery disconnect switch no too. Now the hot wire to the solenoid is always powered. A mechanic and I have been stumped for over a month now.Have been told there is a secondary solenoid or a relay somewhere. Can't find either. Have the hot wire rigged with a momentary start switch and motor runs fine. Key will turn it off. This happened when it appeared to have a dead battery ( it was not) and used the dual battery rocker to start it.
Fired right up. Any ideas. About ready to look for a high cliff.
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Old 11-17-2019, 09:23 AM   #2
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If you have a Spartan Chassis, I would contact them and ask for the wiring diagrams for your coach. On my Scenic cruiser, the second solenoid is located inside the frame rail on the passenger side a little bit in front of the batteries for the chassis. It is hard to see and it supplies power to the main starting relay/solenoid so the wires on the terminals are not battery size cables. Mine is going bad but in the opposite way, it will click, just wont pass power until I click it several times then the engine will roll over and start. It is on my list of things to change next summer. It is well hidden and awkward to get at so I have not been in any hurry to crawl under there in the past.
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1995 Gulf Stream 34' Scenic Cruiser Diesel Pusher 8344WFD. Cummins 12 Valve 230 HP, Allison MD3060 World Tec II.
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:58 AM   #3
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Thanks. We have talked many times to Spartan and they are great but admit not for sure where it is but should be where yours is. Gulfstream is clueless. We have checked the frame there and haven't found it. Will check again with your info in mind. Do you have a part number or description for the solenoid? Or is it a normal size and design? Roughly how big? Sort term we have bypassed the whole mess with a push switch wired direct battery to starter solenoid. Fit nicely on dashboard in lighter socket right next to the key. We still have an always hot wire taped up. Don't like that.
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Old 11-18-2019, 02:13 PM   #4
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It has been a couple of years since I was under there to look at it, but it is a standard Ford type of Starter Relay in style with two large terminals on the side and I am not sure if there is one or two small terminals on the front. If two, one would be for ground and not a "I" terminal as used on the Fords to bypass the Ballast resistor. If a Single terminal is used, the ground would be through the mounting bolts. Either one would work as long as the power was applied to the "S" terminal and the ground if two wire were left off for a single wire relay. If it is a two wire relay, you just have to make sure one of the terminals is not labeled "I". I hope I have not added to the confusion. Mine is buried behind some obstructions, I can't remember if hoses or wiring harnesses, but it is not in the open and easily seen. You are absolutely right about Gulf Stream being useless, every thing I have contacted them for they had no information. I get the feeling they just want us older coach owners to just go away and not bother them.
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1995 Gulf Stream 34' Scenic Cruiser Diesel Pusher 8344WFD. Cummins 12 Valve 230 HP, Allison MD3060 World Tec II.
2019 Jeep Cherokee TrailHawk Elite,
Road Master Sterling All-Terrain Tow Bar,
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:44 AM   #5
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Thanks. really appreciate your help. We will get back under there this weekend. I am in Northern OH and weather stinks now. We started on this problem almost 2 months ago when it was nice out (but not under). Am thinking of replacing the push switch with a solenoid if we can't find the solenoid. Ran a pair of 10 ga. wires to the dash from the starter and battery. Mounted right beside the key so maybe we can figure out which wire from the key is powering the old hot wire to the MIA solenoid. Only as a last resort.
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Old 11-19-2019, 09:17 AM   #6
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I hopefully have attached the Circuit Number Identification Sheet Spartan sent me when I first purchased my Scenic Cruiser. If not, it is a PDF File and I will try and get it to you some other way. The nice thing about it is if you have the number on the wire, example, #16, you look at the sheet and find it is listed as the Fuel Gauge Sender. Looking at the back of your Ignition Switch, you just Identify the wire numbers and it will tell you what each wire does.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf circuitsheet-ec-mm.pdf (1.60 MB, 11 views)
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1995 Gulf Stream 34' Scenic Cruiser Diesel Pusher 8344WFD. Cummins 12 Valve 230 HP, Allison MD3060 World Tec II.
2019 Jeep Cherokee TrailHawk Elite,
Road Master Sterling All-Terrain Tow Bar,
Air Force One Brake System
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Old 11-19-2019, 02:20 PM   #7
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Wow. Thanks. You are a great help. I got the list and will get time to go through it later. Not sure I understand, are the terminals/wires on the key switch numbered? FYI I am not a mechanic but I have a friend that has worked with me through this whole mess and has many years as a truck/diesel mechanic and he is puzzled. If the secondary solenoid is hidden where you suggest, life is good. Again thanks for your help.
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Old 11-19-2019, 03:17 PM   #8
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If you peal back the wiring harness split loom, Spartan printed a number on every wire every so many inches so you can go to any wiring harness and peal back the covering and see the numbers. Gulf Stream did that also, using a three letter combination, they just won't tell you what the letters mean. Some are easy to guess, others I have no idea what they mean. Examples I have figured out are shown on the attached PDF File, there are what I have been able to discover and document in NanoCad for my records. Something I poke into when we are on the road and I get bored in camp, I have been dong this for the last 10 years. I did start out with AutoCad when I was working full time and I had access to the program. So far I have measured drawings of my coach floor plan and most of the wiring in the basements figured out, now I just need to dig into the wiring buried behind the switches and ceiling lights next year.
I guess the attachment didn't make it.
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1995 Gulf Stream 34' Scenic Cruiser Diesel Pusher 8344WFD. Cummins 12 Valve 230 HP, Allison MD3060 World Tec II.
2019 Jeep Cherokee TrailHawk Elite,
Road Master Sterling All-Terrain Tow Bar,
Air Force One Brake System
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Old 11-19-2019, 03:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancer268 View Post
If you peal back the wiring harness split loom, Spartan printed a number on every wire every so many inches so you can go to any wiring harness and peal back the covering and see the numbers. Gulf Stream did that also, using a three letter combination, they just won't tell you what the letters mean. Some are easy to guess, others I have no idea what they mean. Examples I have figured out are shown on the attached PDF File, there are what I have been able to discover and document in NanoCad for my records. Something I poke into when we are on the road and I get bored in camp, I have been dong this for the last 10 years. I did start out with AutoCad when I was working full time and I had access to the program. So far I have measured drawings of my coach floor plan and most of the wiring in the basements figured out, now I just need to dig into the wiring buried behind the switches and ceiling lights next year.
I guess the attachment didn't make it.
I will try this again.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 1995 Gulf Stream Switch Panel Wiring.pdf (231.6 KB, 9 views)
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1995 Gulf Stream 34' Scenic Cruiser Diesel Pusher 8344WFD. Cummins 12 Valve 230 HP, Allison MD3060 World Tec II.
2019 Jeep Cherokee TrailHawk Elite,
Road Master Sterling All-Terrain Tow Bar,
Air Force One Brake System
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Old 11-26-2019, 05:53 PM   #10
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So are you making any progress or is this crazy weather still putting things on hold?
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1995 Gulf Stream 34' Scenic Cruiser Diesel Pusher 8344WFD. Cummins 12 Valve 230 HP, Allison MD3060 World Tec II.
2019 Jeep Cherokee TrailHawk Elite,
Road Master Sterling All-Terrain Tow Bar,
Air Force One Brake System
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:42 AM   #11
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Good morning and thanks for asking. A big NO. We carefully checked where you suggested last Sunday and found nothing. Trying to follow the hot wire backward we have disconnected from the starter solenoid is all we can think of now. It will be a mess since it disappears in looms. Getting too old to do this on my back. May have to find a shop. May wait till spring. The wind is supposed to exceed 60 mp here today so maybe I will be lucky and it will go with Dorothy to Kansas.
One more clue. What ever is going on unless I put the store switch on it will run the batteries down pretty much over night.
This is a 2001 Friendship. Spartan built the chassis in 1999 according to their records. I assume it is same vintage as yours. Last numbers of VIN are XC032649.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Rick
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Old 11-27-2019, 08:12 AM   #12
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One thing to note, I have the Spartan EC-2000 series chassis, I don't knle what the Freedom came on so that might have a bearing on what I pointed out on my coach. I understand the weather, so far this morning I have had over .86" of rain and there is a partial closure of the Mackinaw bridge, only cars and empty pick-ups without tool boxes or caps are allowed over the bridge due to the winds. Sorry I can't be of any more help.
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1995 Gulf Stream 34' Scenic Cruiser Diesel Pusher 8344WFD. Cummins 12 Valve 230 HP, Allison MD3060 World Tec II.
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Road Master Sterling All-Terrain Tow Bar,
Air Force One Brake System
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Old 11-27-2019, 08:18 AM   #13
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I will follow up with the solution when we find it
Cheers!
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Old 12-07-2019, 08:55 AM   #14
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Default Follow up on solenoid.

Hi,
The missing link was found by sense of touch. It is actually a regular cubic, about 1" on sides, relay. Not a Ford-type solenoid. Well hidden under a plastic weather shield. Tucked under wire loom bundles about where you suggested in the frame rail. A little more to the rear. Have one coming on Monday to see if that does it. Happy Holidays and thanks again for your input.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:11 AM   #15
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Glad you found it, I always thought the Ford Style relay was over kill for what it was ask to do. Maybe as your coach is a newer model, they found a different way of doing it with a lighter duty part though if the contacts welded together it might have been a poor choice on Spartans part. I will still have to fix mine, hopefully next summer. Marry Christmas and have a good winter season.
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1995 Gulf Stream 34' Scenic Cruiser Diesel Pusher 8344WFD. Cummins 12 Valve 230 HP, Allison MD3060 World Tec II.
2019 Jeep Cherokee TrailHawk Elite,
Road Master Sterling All-Terrain Tow Bar,
Air Force One Brake System
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Old 12-14-2019, 03:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancer268 View Post
One thing to note, I have the Spartan EC-2000 series chassis, I don't knle what the Freedom came on so that might have a bearing on what I pointed out on my coach. I understand the weather, so far this morning I have had over .86" of rain and there is a partial closure of the Mackinaw bridge, only cars and empty pick-ups without tool boxes or caps are allowed over the bridge due to the winds. Sorry I can't be of any more help.
thanks for posting your documents and info, saved for future use. I have the same chassis

.
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Old 12-14-2019, 05:36 PM   #17
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Have you checked with Spartan for the wiring diagrams? When I gave them my VIN, they sent me a PDF File of the Chassis wiring and it has been a great help. It is not perfect as Gulf Stream made some modifications when they added the Battery Control Center to the system.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 0705-GG5 EC2000 W-MDtrans.pdf (388.5 KB, 4 views)
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Road Master Sterling All-Terrain Tow Bar,
Air Force One Brake System
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Old 12-14-2019, 05:44 PM   #18
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I better call them with my VIN, I do have the BCC in the Driver's side front bay.

They have been very helpful in the past providing info/part numbers for our specific model.

I am still going to save your documents including your last one.

I also now believe ours is a 1995 model vs 1996 (and edited my Forum Signature). The Nevada Title from the 2nd owner listed it as a 1996. Washington State has it as 1995 once we registered. The Gulf Stream Plate inside the Coach shows the Manufactured Date as 09/12/1995. I thought it could possible be a 1996 but more investigation leads me towards 1995. Those late model year dates can be tricky. There are some features from the 1996 brochure and the original furnace installed was the SF-35 (according to the GS sticker inside) and not the SF-42 as listed in both the 1995 and 1996 brochures for this specific model, that was also throwing me off.

The Chassis was manufactured earlier in 1995.

Your GS 8344WFD doesn't have the BCC?

.
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Old 12-14-2019, 06:12 PM   #19
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I have been tracing the BCC for the last 10 years and have had help from Intelatec, obviously the unit is obsolete but still functioning. The last drawing is for my VIN range and might even include your coach, I think you said it was a 1996 model. I have also included some other components I have had issues over the years, The Speed-O-Meter was self inflicted as I had the dash apart and lost the picture I had taken of the wiring so I had to contact VDO to get that information. I literately have dozens of equipment diagrams, though several are generic and you can get into trouble if you don't know what you are looking for in them. I know I have and it has been fun learning from my mistakes.
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2019 Jeep Cherokee TrailHawk Elite,
Road Master Sterling All-Terrain Tow Bar,
Air Force One Brake System
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Old 12-14-2019, 06:43 PM   #20
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wow, great! Maybe you should create a new Thread for Scenic Cruiser BCC and Spartan Chassis Circuit Number Identification info with all the files there.. would make it easier for others in the future to find. I'm sure this will be very helpful to others in the future.

Saving all docs in your last post too.

.
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