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Old 08-07-2019, 12:23 PM   #1
Capt_Bill_USMC
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I have a '94 Tourmaster 8391 and I am trying to understand it's electrical system.

Background: Recently, all batts were completely drained and required a charge. After charging, the coach started right up as did the gen. Each day since then, (Sunday night until today, its Wednesday) I've been going out to the coach to make sure everything is holding its charge. No issues. This the result for today:

-Engine starts right up. I have to wait for about a minute and then the gen is able to start. If I don't wait long enough, nothing happens when I try to start the gen.
-After a few seconds of the gen spooling up, the roof A/Cs come on and they run fine.
-Today is the first day that the refer did not come on, the microwave won't come on, the radio doesn't work. Basically, the only things that work under coach/gen power is the roof a/cs and the lights inside and out.

Yesterday, everything worked fine inside, no issues.

What could be happening?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 08-07-2019, 01:23 PM   #2
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Bill,


If your generator is run on diesel fuel as mine was, it does require a "pre-heat" cycle to operate the glow plugs prior to the generator cranking. Actually, your diesel main engine for the coach has glow plugs as well and particularly in cold weather also needs a pre-heat cycle. There was a dash light indicator on my 2007 Tourmaster that would time out to show it was ready to crank the engine after first turning the ignition to on. Above about 70 degrees ambient, most diesel engines will start without the glow plug cycle...but the generator controls on my coach never allowed the cycle to be skipped even in warm weather.


Yes the generator must run a bit before the transfer switch allows electrical loads to be added to the generator -- this would include the roof air conditioners and all AC appliances/loads in the coach. If you were connected to shore power, this transfer would cause the AC loads to be switched FROM the shore power TO the generator. Since you are not on shore power, the AC available from the generator does go through this short delay to allow the generator to stabilize its running after startup.


Is your refrigerator an RV style (gas absorption cycle with either propane or electric power...either 12 volts DC or 110 volts AC) or a residential style full size one that ONLY runs on AC power? If your coach has a residential refrigerator and does not run on Propane when electrical power is not available, then you will be pretty much tethered to shore power for a live-aboard lifestyle. I did have a large Inverter in my coach powered by a separate set of 4 each 6 volt golf cart batteries that could run the fridge for several hours without either generator or shore power, and that was adequate for driving between sites. If you don't open the fridge unnecessarily (particularly the freezer door if it has two separate doors...) it will stay cold overnight without power, but not much longer.


I will observe that letting the batteries on your coach go 'flat' will have shortened their life - even if they have accepted a full recharge. It sounds like the chassis batteries are being charged by the engine alternator now as you are running it often, and while the generator runs the converter it should be charging the house batteries. If your interior lighting is like that on my coach, it is entirely run at 12 volts DC. Your ceiling lights should work even when the shore power is not connected and the generator is not running if the house batteries are not discharged. When you start the generator and you already have a ceiling light on, you may notice it brighten when the generator transfer switch comes on-line, as that is when the converter begins charging the house batteries and taking on the load of the house lighting.


In summary, the power distribution in a typical diesel pusher coach with generator, inverter, and converter is as follows:
Shore power AC --> main transfer switch (where generator power comes in if shore power is not present) --> inverter transfer switch (where DESIGNATED loads such as the residential refrigerator would be powered by the inverter if other upstream power sources are absent...) --> to AC loads in the motor home. Note that the Converter (which is powered by 110 volts AC and makes 12 volts DC to power the lighting and charge the house batteries...) Your couch may not have an INVERTER, but it surely has a CONVERTER as that function is needed in the smallest travel trailer through the grandest coach.


Hope this helps a bit, but feel free to ask additional questions.


Your observed loss of microwave function and refrigerator function could possibly be a sub-panel breaker issue. In my coach the Inverter powered the residential refrigerator, the microwave, the TV and a few other designated loads, and it had a separate breaker panel for that reason.



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Old 08-07-2019, 02:59 PM   #3
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Bill,


If your generator is run on diesel fuel as mine was, it does require a "pre-heat" cycle to operate the glow plugs prior to the generator cranking. Actually, your diesel main engine for the coach has glow plugs as well and particularly in cold weather also needs a pre-heat cycle. There was a dash light indicator on my 2007 Tourmaster that would time out to show it was ready to crank the engine after first turning the ignition to on. Above about 70 degrees ambient, most diesel engines will start without the glow plug cycle...but the generator controls on my coach never allowed the cycle to be skipped even in warm weather.


Yes the generator must run a bit before the transfer switch allows electrical loads to be added to the generator -- this would include the roof air conditioners and all AC appliances/loads in the coach. If you were connected to shore power, this transfer would cause the AC loads to be switched FROM the shore power TO the generator. Since you are not on shore power, the AC available from the generator does go through this short delay to allow the generator to stabilize its running after startup.


Is your refrigerator an RV style (gas absorption cycle with either propane or electric power...either 12 volts DC or 110 volts AC) or a residential style full size one that ONLY runs on AC power? If your coach has a residential refrigerator and does not run on Propane when electrical power is not available, then you will be pretty much tethered to shore power for a live-aboard lifestyle. I did have a large Inverter in my coach powered by a separate set of 4 each 6 volt golf cart batteries that could run the fridge for several hours without either generator or shore power, and that was adequate for driving between sites. If you don't open the fridge unnecessarily (particularly the freezer door if it has two separate doors...) it will stay cold overnight without power, but not much longer.


I will observe that letting the batteries on your coach go 'flat' will have shortened their life - even if they have accepted a full recharge. It sounds like the chassis batteries are being charged by the engine alternator now as you are running it often, and while the generator runs the converter it should be charging the house batteries. If your interior lighting is like that on my coach, it is entirely run at 12 volts DC. Your ceiling lights should work even when the shore power is not connected and the generator is not running if the house batteries are not discharged. When you start the generator and you already have a ceiling light on, you may notice it brighten when the generator transfer switch comes on-line, as that is when the converter begins charging the house batteries and taking on the load of the house lighting.


In summary, the power distribution in a typical diesel pusher coach with generator, inverter, and converter is as follows:
Shore power AC --> main transfer switch (where generator power comes in if shore power is not present) --> inverter transfer switch (where DESIGNATED loads such as the residential refrigerator would be powered by the inverter if other upstream power sources are absent...) --> to AC loads in the motor home. Note that the Converter (which is powered by 110 volts AC and makes 12 volts DC to power the lighting and charge the house batteries...) Your couch may not have an INVERTER, but it surely has a CONVERTER as that function is needed in the smallest travel trailer through the grandest coach.


Hope this helps a bit, but feel free to ask additional questions.


Your observed loss of microwave function and refrigerator function could possibly be a sub-panel breaker issue. In my coach the Inverter powered the residential refrigerator, the microwave, the TV and a few other designated loads, and it had a separate breaker panel for that reason.



Chuck
Thanks Chuck!

All of that sounds reasonable. My only issue with what you said was that as of last night, I observed a cold fridge/freezer. Today not at all. Also, the panel in the back next to the sink behaved differently today than last night. The panel I speak of is the AC Input panel. I will post a photo of it. Last night it was lit up. Today it was not.

My coach is diesel. I do not have a glow plug light, but I am very familiar as I used to work on diesels and prefer driving them. I just put the key in wait about 15 sec before cranking the engine. I'll use the preheat function for the gen from now on. Good catch!

Again, everything you are saying sounds very reasonable but when I compare the operation of yesterday to today (in my driveway) nothing is the same. If my roof ACs work fine, I cannot understand why other things aren't, unless it is a breaker issue. Where are the breakers? Under the driver seat in the basement?

Thanks!

Bill
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:09 PM   #4
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[IMG]http:/[/IMG]

This was all lit up last night when I ran the Motorhome but not today. This is the only other thing different than last night when I ran it.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:45 PM   #5
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Bill,


You still have not verified if your refrigerator is a propane/electric model (2-way or 3-way) instead of an AC only residential model as used in the later Tour Master units. So I did a bit of searching in the archive Gulf Stream literature and find that the 8391 came as either a side entry or a front entry floor plan and has no slide out sections (see the attached PDF document.)


I now know from that brochure that your coach was only offered with a 2-way (or optionally 3-way) refrigerator. 2-way means that it would run on propane or 12 bolts DC, and 3-way means that it could run on propane, 12 volts DC or on 120 volts AC. In any event the refrigerator should get cold if it is burning propane and there is propane in your tank, unless it is forced to run on DC or AC via a selector switch on/in the refrigerator itself. How is that selector control presently set?


The AC breakers should be in a cabinet inside your coach and not in the basement if it is anything like mine. Maybe another member of this forum has a similar model and can give more specifics. I will continue to look for some pictures of similar coaches to help us in this discussion, but posting some images of your interior control panels (generator start control, battery and tank levels, etc.) would definitely help.


Chuck
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:58 PM   #6
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Bill,


I was researching/typing when you posted the image of your Heart inverter controller so sorry for the crossed communications. That panel is the status of your INVERTER, which must have some batteries supplying power to it so it can make 110 volts AC when neither the shore power nor the generator are available. If the panel is no longer lit -- either the battery bank supplying it is discharged or the rocker switch is set to the off position.
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:05 PM   #7
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The Heart control panel you pictured is the user interface for the inverter, which must be somewhere in a basement compartment of your coach. Look for a metal enclosure that is about a foot cube or thereabouts and has two HEAVY 12 volt battery cables entering it. An inverter pulls a very high number of amps when operating (hence the short operating time capacity on battery backup...) so this inverter unit will be very close to the batteries to keep the high current low voltage cables short. I still think you might find a third bank of batteries associated with this inverter, but if not it must run off the house batteries and would definitely explain what is draining your batteries. Please post a picture of your refrigerator control that switches it to propane, and turn the inverter control rocker to OFF to allow the batteries to come up to charge and stay there.
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:29 PM   #8
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The Heart control panel you pictured is the user interface for the inverter, which must be somewhere in a basement compartment of your coach. Look for a metal enclosure that is about a foot cube or thereabouts and has two HEAVY 12 volt battery cables entering it. An inverter pulls a very high number of amps when operating (hence the short operating time capacity on battery backup...) so this inverter unit will be very close to the batteries to keep the high current low voltage cables short. I still think you might find a third bank of batteries associated with this inverter, but if not it must run off the house batteries and would definitely explain what is draining your batteries. Please post a picture of your refrigerator control that switches it to propane, and turn the inverter control rocker to OFF to allow the batteries to come up to charge and stay there.
Thank you! Where would that inverter rocker switch be located?

I will take some more photos and post them.

Thanks!
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:49 PM   #9
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The inverter rocker switch ins the on on the right side of the panel you pictured with the ON, OFF and LOW CHARGE labels next to it.


Also note that in your picture, the AC INPUT lamp (fourth from the top in the left hand column of lamps...) is not lit so it is not receiving AC power from the shore or the generator at the time of the photograph...
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:07 PM   #10
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Bill,


I could not readily find a Heart manual for your exact inverter and control panel, but here is one from a slightly newer model. Note the later control panel also has both voltage monitoring for the battery bank as well as how much current is being pulled from the battery. These inverters can pull over 100 amps so they can drain a battery bank pronto if left on with a large wattage AC load such as refrigerator or microwave.


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Old 08-07-2019, 05:17 PM   #11
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Some additional observations: my gen will not start unless I start the coach first. If I run the coach for a few minutes along with the gen then shut the gen off and then the coach wait 10 mins I can get the gen started again without the coach being started. After 2 hours sinners to begin the sequence over again by starting coach then then gen.

I think there is something wrong because I should be able to start that gen independently of the coach.

Also I have reviewed the manual of the fridge and it says nothing about propane. I’ll post pics here in a sec.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:21 PM   #12
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Pics of fridge and the inverter.
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Old 08-07-2019, 06:03 PM   #13
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OK Bill,


Your fridge is not a 2-way then and ONLY runs on AC voltage (which you can confirm in the manual specifications page...) This means that the AC must be present, either from the shore power (primary source) or the generator (secondary source) or in emergencies from the inverter (limited duration third possible source of AC.)


I suspect that your house batteries are mostly depleted each time you start your generator and that is why the engine must be running for a period of time to bring the up so the generator will start. Try turning the inverter to OFF on the control panel and verify that the AC output power on light in the top middle of the panel is not lit. This should allow a charge to remain in your house batteries overnight so the generator can be started without first starting the coach motor.


I see from the last photo above you found the location of the Heart Inverter -- can you trace back the heavy cables to see which battery bank powers this inverter? Where in the coach is the inverter located? (If it is not near the house or chassis batteries, I suspect that there is another bank of batteries you have yet to find.) Note that the inverter can draw up to a continuous 200+ amps from the battery powering it, so it is definitely not the way you want to run the refrigerator for many hours, let alone days.


When the system is running on either the generator or the shore power, you can look at the inverter front indicators (not the control panel) to see roughly how much current is being placed back into the bank -- over 30 amps, 20 to 30, amps, or 10 to 20 amps depending on the LED color showing... You cannot directly read how much current is being taking out of the bank when the inverter is making 120 volts AC for the appliance loads when the generator or shore power is not present however. Most later model inverters do allow for this draw current to be metered.



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Old 08-07-2019, 07:55 PM   #14
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Chuck, the inverter is directly across from the battery bank in the basement on he port side. The batts are starboard.

Again, really appreciate your info. I think I am closer to getting to the bottom of this issue.

Still confused as to why the roof AC will work, both of them and nothing else. I would think that the roof ACs would draw quite a bit of power.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:05 PM   #15
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If my roof AC worked and my fridge and microwave quit I would think it was a breaker. I would first look in the main fusebox for tripped breakers. Then I would check all my ground fault resets on the plugs that have them. That's about it. It's always one or the other
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:12 PM   #16
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Bill,


Pretty sure that the roof air conditioners are NOT on the inverter, but can be run from the generator (and shore power of course...) as this is how my 2007 TM was configured. I suspect that the generator power must pass through the inverter's internal secondary transfer switch to get to the microwave and the fridge, so that would limit their working until the house batteries were charged up enough for the Heart unit to at least have coherent control of the power path even it was not doing an inversion.



Because my coach had a 23 cubic foot refrigerator, it needed even more inverter power when normal 110 v AC was not available -- such as when driving. Therefore it had a large and separate battery bank and did not draw from tghe house or the chassis batteries. Your coach appears to have an apartment sized two door refrigerator of perhaps 10 cubic feet or so and perhaps consumes much less wattage than my full sized GE side by side unit that could draw more than 1250 Watts during a defrost cycle. What does your fridge manual state in terms of power consumption?


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Old 08-07-2019, 08:39 PM   #17
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Chuck,

Nothing regarding power consumption. Itís awoefully inadequate manual which Iím finding is the case for all RV related manuals.

Here is what ot says: 10.1 cu ft, 115v 60Hz, not designed to be used with an inverted. I didnít know I had the inverter on this entire time.

Now to find the breaker box.

Inverter panel next to stove: I switched it off. No LED lights available. For grins I switched it to low charge for a few seconds and observed the green led light and the red charge rate light. When I switched to on it just showed a red AC input light on.

Thanks again to everyone who replied. Iím learning quite a bit. When I bought this it was not on a whim. I spent 2 days with the owner using a 28 page checklist. Iím a Realtor so I did a home inspection and I was a Harrier and Hornet guy in the USMC so I was methodical and anal about things. However after a while thing got overwhelming and I was more interested in making sure all systems worked, didnít get the chance to understand all systems. The difference was he had an RV hookup at his house as well as a dedicated water hookup. So everything was charged and was going to operate if it was a working component to begin with. I donít have my stuff plugged in and Iím working toward that after I understand the electrical. The issue is when I plugged in the RV after I bought it not only did it trip my breaker in the house the GFCI started smoking. I suspect thatís because it was a 15 a GFCI and I was pulling 30 if not 50 a. Once I understand how the electrical works on the coach I can begin to lighten the load itís pulling then slowly add back as necessary. Iím getting there, so thank you!
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:00 AM   #18
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Chuck,

Nothing regarding power consumption. Itís awoefully inadequate manual which Iím finding is the case for all RV related manuals.

Here is what ot says: 10.1 cu ft, 115v 60Hz, not designed to be used with an inverted. I didnít know I had the inverter on this entire time.

Now to find the breaker box.

Inverter panel next to stove: I switched it off. No LED lights available. For grins I switched it to low charge for a few seconds and observed the green led light and the red charge rate light. When I switched to on it just showed a red AC input light on.

Thanks again to everyone who replied. Iím learning quite a bit. When I bought this it was not on a whim. I spent 2 days with the owner using a 28 page checklist. Iím a Realtor so I did a home inspection and I was a Harrier and Hornet guy in the USMC so I was methodical and anal about things. However after a while thing got overwhelming and I was more interested in making sure all systems worked, didnít get the chance to understand all systems. The difference was he had an RV hookup at his house as well as a dedicated water hookup. So everything was charged and was going to operate if it was a working component to begin with. I donít have my stuff plugged in and Iím working toward that after I understand the electrical. The issue is when I plugged in the RV after I bought it not only did it trip my breaker in the house the GFCI started smoking. I suspect thatís because it was a 15 a GFCI and I was pulling 30 if not 50 a. Once I understand how the electrical works on the coach I can begin to lighten the load itís pulling then slowly add back as necessary. Iím getting there, so thank you!
When you plugged the coach in to shore power it shouldn't have been drawing more than 15 amps unless you had some major things running like the AC, microwave, or electric heater.
So that brings us to the question of why the breaker blew and smoked.
Two things I can think of are;
1.Somehow your plug wiring doesn't match the output of your home wiring.
Maybe you have it set up different than the previous owner? Wires crossed? Bad plug? Bad cord?
2. Something went bad between the time the previous owner had it connected to shore power and when you plugged it in.
Most things have breakers that would blow to protect you against fire.
So now we are back to the cord on the shore power or some other wiring.
I'm betting on the cord now. It's the usual suspect. And if that cord is shorting then everything is going haywire.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:19 AM   #19
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When you plugged the coach in to shore power it shouldn't have been drawing more than 15 amps unless you had some major things running like the AC, microwave, or electric heater.
So that brings us to the question of why the breaker blew and smoked.
Two things I can think of are;
1.Somehow your plug wiring doesn't match the output of your home wiring.
Maybe you have it set up different than the previous owner? Wires crossed? Bad plug? Bad cord?
2. Something went bad between the time the previous owner had it connected to shore power and when you plugged it in.
Most things have breakers that would blow to protect you against fire.
So now we are back to the cord on the shore power or some other wiring.
I'm betting on the cord now. It's the usual suspect. And if that cord is shorting then everything is going haywire.
Ok, thanks! So, when I plugged it in back in April, the 3 A/Cs were running as was the fridge.

If the cord is bad, it literally went bad in 24 hrs. Because I drove the coach home, and 24 hrs later tried to plug it in. Only to blow the GFCI, trip the breaker and smoke.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:25 AM   #20
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Ok, thanks! So, when I plugged it in back in April, the 3 A/Cs were running as was the fridge.

If the cord is bad, it literally went bad in 24 hrs. Because I drove the coach home, and 24 hrs later tried to plug it in. Only to blow the GFCI, trip the breaker and smoke.
Cords go bad intermittently. Wiggle the cord and it works. Wiggle the cord and it shorts.

Food for thought for you;

I can plug my coach into a 15 amp circuit at home no problem at all. Everything is fine until I start the AC and the microwave together. Maybe your two ACs would be a problem. Usually this stuff is off when you plug it in.
So turn it all off and plug it in again and see what happens. We need to rule out a shorting cord and that's how you do it. Until you can plug it in without your breaker tripping we are just chasing our tails. Fix that first. Then move forward.
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