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Old 08-26-2006, 11:38 PM   #11
poordevil
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I must be one of the lucky ones. In December 2004, I purchased a used 1999 Sun Voyager Bus Diesel. In going through all the documentation I received with it, I had a complete set of Gulf Stream electrical schematics, somewhere around 80 pages (I think the pages are 11 X 16". Wish I had the Plumbing, Grey and Waste schematics also. Don't know how the previous owner got them, but I'm glad I do. Have had to use 2 times so far.
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Old 08-27-2006, 04:47 PM   #12
gsadmin
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poordevil, you have no idea how lucky you are to have those. Some others on this board with similar coaches may wish to share in your good fortune. If you ever have the ability to scan the more important sheets and post them, I am sure someone out there would be indebted.
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- Added hard-wired Pro-Sine 1000 Inverter
- Converted batteries to 4x6V from 2x12V
- Added Bully air-horn
- Added Safe-T-Steer

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Old 08-28-2006, 01:12 PM   #13
GStream40
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I used to be involved in the purchasing of production machinery for the company I retired from. We always negotiated a complete print & bill of material package in any machine purchase.

That usually cost us from 5% to 20% above of the cost of the machinery. But we were able to maintain the equipment and almost always had the spare parts on hand we felt had a high failure rate.

Print packages are expensive and they cut out the maker of the equipment and the suppliers of maintenance to maintain it since it allows the end user to find other suppliers and do their own maintenance.

As this applies to the RV Industry, providing complete prints to the buyer/owner could cut out the RV dealer's service department to a certain degree and also the manufacturer suppling some of the parts. With this thought in mind, maybe that is one of the reasons that Gulf Stream has maintained this policy on not releasing prints to the owners.

I realize that a lot of the RV dealers service is not up to par no matter what brand/make of RV. That is why I do most of the maintenance to our RV myself. Would I like to have complete wiring/plumbing prints, you bet.

Would I be willing to pay 5 to 20% more for the prints, as is done the manufacturing industry, NO way. It would not be cost effective.

Did you ever wonder why some dealers have a problem and others don't when dealing with any supplier/manufacturer? Makes we wonder where the real problem is.

Anyway, these are my thoughts,
Ron
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:41 PM   #14
gsadmin
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Ron, I have a feeling that your reasoning may be spot on for reluctance to release this information. Generally I feel that there could be three reasons (not really valid ones to me) to withold this info (or combonation of these three):

1. They want to keep more repair profits to themselves and their dealers. Although seemingly a logical practice, in the auto industry it was like this for years until court cases forced them to release (via sale) to the public their service manuals so that not only DIYers could do safe repairs but third party mechanics could as well.

2. The documentation is severely lacking. They might have really good documentation for general models or model years but not versions for every model/year combo. This may reflect negatively on their business.

3. Legal liability if someone uses their docs to perform a repair and then has a death or injury due to erroneous information printed in the documentation (limitations in the document itself or signed releases can prevent this one for the most part)

Anyway, like i have said many times, other top-tier RV manufacturers such as Alfa, Winnebago and others release incredible docs right from their web sites...I love my GS, but when I get the next one, my love for it will not supplant my need for good docs and if this is not yet resolved I am afraid my money will go elswhere.
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2004 Ultra Supreme Class A 30'
- Added hard-wired Pro-Sine 1000 Inverter
- Converted batteries to 4x6V from 2x12V
- Added Bully air-horn
- Added Safe-T-Steer

SLC, UT
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Old 08-28-2006, 06:23 PM   #15
GStream40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsadmin
Anyway, like i have said many times, other top-tier RV manufacturers such as Alfa, Winnebago and others release incredible docs right from their web sites...I love my GS, but when I get the next one, my love for it will not supplant my need for good docs and if this is not yet resolved I am afraid my money will go elswhere.
Well, in reality when we purchase our next RV, if we ever do, we will purchase the RV that we really want and fits our needs and lifestyle no matter what brand as long as the quality in the cabinets etc. is what we want. Not that the prints would not be important, if available. But I would not base my decision solely on that reason.

I have always gotten excellent, prompt responses from Gulf Stream along with great service. Being on our second GS RV, I must say that the present one had many more service issues than our first, but they have all been handled in a prompt matter by GS. Now the dealer is another matter, I don't want to get started on them.

I also agree that Gulf Stream needs to get on-board with the information world that everyone expects now. As a company it is behind many others in aspects of the information age, but they do build some great RV's.

Ron
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:52 AM   #16
RJ82much
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It's interesting how the beat goes on about drawings. The subject has a life of its own. Electrical schematics & plumbing routing diagrams (IMO) hardly constitute specially designed & machined parts. They are certainly not trade secrets. Also, there is not an item in a coach that isn't off-the-shelf from another manufacturer.

Just think how handy it would be for so many to know if their bathroom sink empties into the black water tank or the grey water tank; or what water is filtered, etc.

Just think how nice it'd be to know what circuits are on each breaker; where the A/V equipment connections run, hey, where the splitter resides for the TVs.

My dealer claimed a need to "keep trying connections" till they get the right ones for the transmission overdrive operation & indication! These were connections into the transmission ECM (electronic control module)! One wrong move & GS would have been waranteeing a thousand dollar computer to the dealership. Fortunately, I went ahead & accepted my coach with an inoperable overdrive. Then pulled a couple strings within GS to get the exact expected connection, including wire colors & connector positions. No experimenting,,, On the 1st try I had OD & a yellow light. & while I was under the dash, I found out why & corrected the inoperative fog lights that puzzled the experts.

I previously worked for a company that manufactured paper processing equipment. True, we NEVER sent out detail drawings of machined parts, but we did provide assembly drawings. Our customers HAD to be able to dissasemble/assemble & adjust the equipment. Not be able to machine the spare parts, just use them. Similarly, the customer was provided with every wire connection, wire size, wire color, junction box, switch detail & the manufacturer part number needed to replace bad items.

Gosh, I get emotional over this subject... Ha Ha Ha. I assure everyone, it is a loosing battle with GS. They have their corporate policy & that's that. To vent my frustration, I have pretty much traced out & accounted for every wire & device in my coach by myself.
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:06 AM   #17
gsadmin
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Ron, My main reason for having more documentation as mandatory (and i know others too that share it) is multifold. First, there are many aftermarket additions I would like to do (or have done to my coach), second, since I am very capable and able in areas of plumbing, electrical, mechanics, etc., after the warranty has expired, I prefer to do most work myself. This not only saves me money, but it also saves me time and hassle of shuttling my rig back and forth to the dealer. Finally, I want the docs so that when I am out in BFE with my RV, doing what you are supposed to do with your RV, and something goes wrong, I would prefer the local repair guy (that is prob not a GS shop) or myself to have as much documentation as possible to make a safe repair to things like lighting, electrical, battery isolation, etc.

Ron, you may have the luxury of excess time and money such that the above does not affect you. If I (or others) was also similarly blessed, I (we) too would only concern myself with things such as the floorplan, cabinetry, etc. I am not being cynical here...just merely pointing out that everyones life circumstances are not the same.
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2004 Ultra Supreme Class A 30'
- Added hard-wired Pro-Sine 1000 Inverter
- Converted batteries to 4x6V from 2x12V
- Added Bully air-horn
- Added Safe-T-Steer

SLC, UT
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ82much
Gosh, I get emotional over this subject... Ha Ha Ha. I assure everyone, it is a loosing battle with GS. They have their corporate policy & that's that. To vent my frustration, I have pretty much traced out & accounted for every wire & device in my coach by myself.
C'mon man, don't give up the fight! Don't be so apathetic! My last hoorah on this subject will be when I get my 200 names and send them certified mail to the "family". If that goes nowhere than at least I did my best for the cause!
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2004 Ultra Supreme Class A 30'
- Added hard-wired Pro-Sine 1000 Inverter
- Converted batteries to 4x6V from 2x12V
- Added Bully air-horn
- Added Safe-T-Steer

SLC, UT
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:13 AM   #19
GStream40
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You know I have been thinking about the many RV owners that I have met over the years. I found out the the biggest percentage do not even read the manuals that come with their RV's or do they do any of their own repairs.

Most of them could care less where the wires ran or connections are or what color wire was used to power the AV eqiupment.
Many of them with a tool in their hands would be dangerous.

They are the ones that are always asking you questions in the campground, you know what I mean, we have all ran into them.

Reminds of the guy I ran into a few years ago that was asking me about our satellite system. Said his TV couldn't get a good picture at all off the antenna. I ran our TV antenna up and showed him the good picture we could get off it, 6 different channels.

Asked me if I would take a look at his. I did and he was right, terrible picture. I looked at the plate where the TV wire was connected and noticed the light was not on for the booster, switched it on and right away got a terrific picture.

He'd had the RV for three years and never turned the switch on for the booster, said he never knew about it. But did remember something the dealers service dept. telling each time to turn on when wanting to use the TV. Guess he had it in several times for this problem and they kept telling him it was okay. Claims I was the first to show him how to turn it on.

I have found out that asking questions from knowledgeable techs is a great asset. Also, never let a dealer rush you through a PDI on purchase. Our first Gulf Stream was purchased from Martinsburg RV in PA, our PDI lasted for a couple of hours going thru all the systems and functions, I asked questions, MANY questions. Then they had us spend the night in their lot to make everything worked as it should. Checked with us the next morning and took care of the two things that were not right, the latches for the pivot on the drivers and passenger seats were not hooked up. They had done a terrific PDI, wish I had purchased our second GS from them, I should have.

Ron
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:34 AM   #20
gsadmin
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Ron, you are so right that many (if not most) that RV would not know what to do with a set of electrical schematics. My mother is one such person. She full-times in a Safari Sahara. Once or twice a year she comes by my place in UT with her coach to visit and have "fix-its" done. She is on a VERY fixed income and has no means to spend $100+/hr. to a shop. And, she cannot do the work herself. But, you know what, when she comes out to my place and has a problem, and I start to look at the issue, she usually comes out with a stack of paper and says "will this help" sure enough it is some schematic or detailed information on the coach or one of its systems. Even when she is on the road, many of the places she stays (like Yuma, AZ) have "work camper handymen" that are well versed in RVs and help her out...again, she hands them docs and she feels much better knowing they don't have to poke around or "keep trying connections".

As I said before, its not only for the DIYer to have as much documentation as possible on your Rig!
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Happy GulfStreamer
2004 Ultra Supreme Class A 30'
- Added hard-wired Pro-Sine 1000 Inverter
- Converted batteries to 4x6V from 2x12V
- Added Bully air-horn
- Added Safe-T-Steer

SLC, UT
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