Tour Master 12V wiring setup

[proost]

We are dry camping in the Keys and I just realized this past week that the only thing currently powering my 12V system is the battery to my generator. I had a solar installation done in 2019 and migrated and merged all of our house batteries from the front and rear of the coach to one of my bays. My inverter charger and batteries are providing 14.3V across two main leads leaving the compartment. But, when I shut that bank off, the coach was still being powered with 12.5V coming from the genset battery. When I hit the coach disconnect button in the front of the rig, that isolates the 12V system no problem. So, something is amiss. I have attempted to find that 14.3 VDC anywhere else in the coach but can't.

Does anyone have a 12V wiring diagram and possibly know the location where my installer may have connected my battery bank to the remainder of the coach? I went back to the 12V distribution bay on the passenger side rear and could only see the 12.5V. I also went to the panel below my bed and I'm getting the same. Again, when I trip the coach disconnect, everything shuts. So weird. From what my installer told me my large battery bank should be providing the charge voltage to top off my generator battery but now it appears that my battery has gone solo and is trying to power the entire coach so I have to put a battery charger on it constantly to keep from draining it.

[Chuck v]

Phil,


No idea how your solar was planned/installed...but I can post/attach a diagram for the DC wiring for these coaches as they came from the factory. The last update on the drawing was in early 2006, but it should be representative of your coach as a starting point. Hope this helps...


Chuck

[Chuck v]

One more question -- when you say "generator battery" are you referring to the battery that originally started the on-board generator and also powered the inverter -- or are you talking about the battery that is charged by the engine generator (chassis batteries)?


In the diagram I provided, the chassis batteries are in the lower right corner, but the inverter/aux generator start battery bank is 4 each golf cart batteries shown in the lower left. The remaining battery bank in the upper left is the house or coach battery bank.


The coach disconnect latching relay is shown near that last bank, while the chassis latching disconnect is shown in the lower right. The IRD relay in the middle of the drawing is what connects the systems together to charge everything when the vehicle engine is running -- and can be temporarily actuated by the dash 'start boost' rocker switch.


Let us know what you find about how much modification was done to support the solar installation...


I never considered solar for my DP coach, because the loads are so large and because the 288 inch wheelbase was not really a good match for most dry camping locations I wished to go. I did have solar on my 20 ft hunting camp trailer...as that saw a lot of dry camping off pavement.



Chuck

[proost]

Originally Posted by Chuck v

One more question -- when you say "generator battery" are you referring to the battery that originally started the on-board generator and also powered the inverter -- or are you talking about the battery that is charged by the engine generator (chassis batteries)?

Hi Chuck,

I replied but for some reason it didn't take I suppose because I can't see it. My apologies.

When my system was installed, the 4 6v batteries up front were replaced by a single 12V commercial battery that I believe was one of my old 12V coach batteries in back. That battery was used to provide starting amperage for my generator, presumably because I now run a 24V bank and have to step down my voltage to 12v to supply coach 12v power.

See the attached modified schematic (less my new battery bank). It looks like everything is functional because the coach is obviously getting the starter battery voltage via the Main and Coach IRD relay up to the disconnect switch.

At present, it looks like a new wire is coming in from a rear vent in the coach battery location beneath the chassis batteries and it's connected to the positives going to the Coach IRD relay (not the disconnect as shown on the drawing) and coming from the now unplugged IntelliPower Converter under the bed. That new wire is presumably supposed to be coming from the new lithium bank. I'm reading voltage but the same as the starter battery and not the 14.3V (with minor loss) coming from the lithium bank.

At this point, I'm considering plugging the old converter back in after I disconnect that line coming into the old coach battery bay to see if I can reenergize charging voltage to the starter battery. lol

Ahh, education through adversity!

[Chuck v]

Phil,


Like my signature line says..."It takes a great deal of time to recover from any improvement..." Not sure the lithium system and the 24 volt inverter is an improvement if you have lost both some functionality and don't have the required proper documentation of all the 'customization'...


The battery bank that was in the front of your coach were never the "house batteries -- they were exclusively the source for the inverter to make supplemental 120 VAC and for starting the generator.


A single 12 volt battery up front will indeed still allow you to start your generator -- but how is it getting recharged? If it was one of the original 12 volt units used for house bank, it is only about 80 AH. While the generator runs, it can get some charge from the generator's own system, but how does it charge from shore power for the long unused periods in between running it??? In the factory configuration, the Xantrex inverter also provided charge control for the generator bank with up to 80+ Amps of charge current for that large bank of 225 AH capacity, and clearly you do not have that now. The main IRD provides a path for charging this battery when the main diesel engine is running (or at least should do that...presuming all that circuitry is still intact) but there is nothing shown to charge it from shore power.


Your modified diagram does not show the "new" inverter, the lithium battery bank, or its charging system. Does this bank only charge from solar? If that is the case, I can't see it being a practical solution for a coach of this size... If there is a shore power charger for this lithium bank, what make and model is it? What is the make and model of the new inverter?


If you provide some added equipment specifics, a little research on my part may get us some additional knowledge of your present, highly modified, system configuration. Pictures would help some as well.



More info please...


Chuck

[proost]

Originally Posted by Chuck v

Phil,


Like my signature line says..."It takes a great deal of time to recover from any improvement..." Not sure the lithium system and the 24 volt inverter is an improvement if you have lost both some functionality and don't have the required proper documentation of all the 'customization'...


The battery bank that was in the front of your coach were never the "house batteries -- they were exclusively the source for the inverter to make supplemental 120 VAC and for starting the generator.


A single 12 volt battery up front will indeed still allow you to start your generator -- but how is it getting recharged? If it was one of the original 12 volt units used for house bank, it is only about 80 AH. While the generator runs, it can get some charge from the generator's own system, but how does it charge from shore power for the long unused periods in between running it??? In the factory configuration, the Xantrex inverter also provided charge control for the generator bank with up to 80+ Amps of charge current for that large bank of 225 AH capacity, and clearly you do not have that now. The main IRD provides a path for charging this battery when the main diesel engine is running (or at least should do that...presuming all that circuitry is still intact) but there is nothing shown to charge it from shore power.


Your modified diagram does not show the "new" inverter, the lithium battery bank, or its charging system. Does this bank only charge from solar? If that is the case, I can't see it being a practical solution for a coach of this size... If there is a shore power charger for this lithium bank, what make and model is it? What is the make and model of the new inverter?


If you provide some added equipment specifics, a little research on my part may get us some additional knowledge of your present, highly modified, system configuration. Pictures would help some as well.



More info please...


Chuck

Chuck,

You are correct about the old bank up front only supplying 12V for the inverter and I suppose they were still considered (by me) as house batteries even though they were only for 110V. Right now, that replacement 12V battery (92ah) still gets a charge from the engine when it's running but not sure about shore power because we've been dry camping for 3 weeks. I'll find out tomorrow. Until recently, it had to have been getting a charge because it survived four years+ with a lot of dry camping for upwards of two weeks. This installation was done in Oct 2019 and since then, we have had zero issues with that single battery or 12V power throughout the coach. My presumption is that until recently, the coach was getting it's 12V supply from my new lithium bank in the bay and that the starter battery was getting a maintenance charge from my new system.

You are correct in that my new drawing doesn't include the new Victron I/C because for my purposes, I'm trying to figure how it connected to my existing 12V system. At this point, I can only see two positive 14.3V leads leaving the bay. The new bank is charged by 1600W solar, shore power, or the generator via my Victron 24V/3000W/70A Multiplus Inverter/Charger. Since it's a 24V system, two 4ga leads come off to feed 24V-12V step-down 70A converters which feed a 12V bus bar for distribution. It's awesome and everything in the bay is working.

Something has disconnected somewhere or a fuse that I can't find in any of the 12V bays or under the bed. Bizarre. Once I move to a full hookup site tomorrow, I'll be able to scamper under the rig to get a different view of my wiring. Right now, too many fire ants on the grass.

Attached is an image of the lithium bank. Those two black wires in front of the batteries are the two leaving the bay.

Thanks for the added brain power! My gut says there is a fuse somewhere that I can't find or some connection point that I can't see. The starter battery is putting out 12.5-13.0v and my new converters are putting out 14.3V so even with loss over distance, it's pretty easy to determine the source of the power to my 12V distribution system. Zero coming from my new bank.

[proost]

Oh, forgot to add: The battery is currently being charged via an external battery charger plugged into my front right bay.

I'm thinking of plugging my old converter back in that is still wired up. Thoughts? I'm thinking that will give me consistent 12V power to the system and will see if that puts charging voltage to the starter battery up front.

Edit: Plugged my old converter back in and sure enough, that battery up front is charging and the voltage at my coach disconnect is strong. At least there's that.

[Chuck v]

Phil,


The factory Xantrex inverter/charger is sized for the larger battery bank, and does include a temperature sensor to avoid charging issues at high currents. Lead acid batteries are best charged at rates between "5C and 20C" -- meaning capacity of the battery divided by 5 max and 20 as a minimum. For your 92 AH battery, that means no more than about 18 amps and at least 4.5 amps. The Xantrex will cook your little battery with its 80 amp + charge capability -- and of course it has the 'smarts to charge less if it knows the single battery capacity if you can determine how to reprogram it.


So your external battery charger in the front bay for this gen start battery is only active on shore power???


What does the dashed line you have added on the coach disconnect/coach IRD mean? Can you describe or show a picture of this modification? How different is it from the below picture?


I will try to find some information on your added equipment and get back to you.


Chuck

[Chuck v]

Phil,


For anything in your coach on the 12 volt nominal system to get power from your lithium 24 volt battery bank, the 24 to 12 volt converter(s) must be functional. I do not see any make or manufacturer info on these components in your text above. You wrote that you "can only see two positive 14.3V leads leaving the bay" and these must be the outputs of the converters, as this cannot be the direct battery bank voltage of the 24V lithium stack. More detail in this area is needed for this discussion...where is the ground lead for this converter output, for instance?


Chuck

[Chuck v]

Phil,


Saw your edit of your last post: So by "old converter" you were referring to the house battery charger (80 amp Progressive Dynamics charger/converter) in the mid-upper left of the diagram with 4 gauge wiring, and not the 2000 W Xantrex inverter, correct. That makes some sense -- but what did you plug it into while dry camping???


Sounds like your coach IRD may be bypassed for some reason -- maybe that dashed line you added is not shown in its present actual location?? Without such a bypass, the front battery would have no connection to the 80 amp converter...



Chuck

[proost]

Chuck,

The Xantrex is disconnected and is not a factor. I still have it, but it is isolated.

Until just now, I was keeping a charge on my starter battery up front with an external 15A charger from Home Depot. Now, I have disconnected that and restarted my original converter under the bed, an IntelliPower PD9200 with a single output via an 80A fuse to my original coach battery location. If you follow the modified schematic, I'm assuming charge voltage is getting to the front of the coach via the Coach IRD relay, to the Main Relay, and then through the original wiring.

The dotted line is actually where the 2ga wire coming from the old coach battery bay connects. Compare that to the original schematic, I'm thinking Gulf Stream just connected that wire to the left post of the Coach IRD relay instead of the input side of the Coach disconnect solenoid. See the picture.

On my new system, the two new Orion non-isolated 24-12/70A DC-DC converters are definitely doing their thing. As you mentioned, they are outputting 14.0V +/-. You are correct. Those two wires are the output from the converters via a common bus bar to the right of the barrel switch in the picture (not connected since the wiring from the converters runs behind that switch and fuse block).

[Chuck v]

Phil,


All this information is helpful, thanks! I still want to know how the PD9200 gets it input AC line power -- is it from the generator running or your inverter when dry camping, or are you now back on shore power?


When the main diesel is not running, the factory wiring of the PD converter should not provide any power to the front battery location where your generator starting battery is now located (unless the Coach IRD Relay has failed or is being constantly energized...) Can you make a voltage measurement on the smaller post of the Coach IRD to verify there is no 12 volt source there presently? Were modifications made in this area when your solar system was installed?? Basically, the house/coach batteries should be isolated from the generator start battery at all times at the 12 volt wiring level UNLESS the IRDs are actuated. Your description indicates that you have a different condition presently with your coach...


Chuck

[proost]

Chuck,

The IntelliPower is doing it's thing. When I first connected it, it cranked up to 14.4V which, according to the manual, means it is in Boost mode to rapidly charge the battery to 90% capacity. I was concerned that it wasn't connected directly to the battery but according to the manual, you can use the converter without a battery.

Just now, I attached a clamp meter to the wire connecting to the battery and the current was low. So, I went and checked voltage and the converter has dropped into Normal mode of 13.6V, meaning the battery is almost charged.

This doesn't solve the issue per se but at least I have a backup!

[Chuck v]

Phil,


So please answer: where does the input power for your PD converter presently come from? From shore power (and from the generator when running via the main transfer switch) -- or can it also come from the new 24 volt inverter that powers other 110 VAC loads on your coach. Just trying to understand the possibilities when you are "dry camping"...



When you actuate the coach disconnect switch -- all 12 volt systems on the coach should then have no power...if this is no longer true what systems are still receiving power and is this thought to be from the front battery that starts the generator??? I am still confused on this part, and it seems that some modifications of the system 12 volt wiring may have been done with the solar system and 24 volt inverter were added...


Chuck

[proost]

Originally Posted by Chuck v

Phil,


All this information is helpful, thanks! I still want to know how the PD9200 gets it input AC line power -- is it from the generator running or your inverter when dry camping, or are you now back on shore power?

My new battery bank with Victron I/C is providing continuous 110V to the coach and the PD9200 (PD9280) is plugged into it's special outlet under the bed adjacent to the 110V distribution panel there. Drycamping or not, my 110V distribution system is constantly energized unless I turn off the Inverter, which I never do.

When the main diesel is not running, the factory wiring of the PD converter should not provide any power to the front battery location where your generator starting battery is now located (unless the Coach IRD Relay has failed or is being constantly energized...) Can you make a voltage measurement on the smaller post of the Coach IRD to verify there is no 12 volt source there presently? Were modifications made in this area when your solar system was installed?? Basically, the house/coach batteries should be isolated from the generator start battery at all times at the 12 volt wiring level UNLESS the IRDs are actuated. Your description indicates that you have a different condition presently with your coach...

Both sides of the Coach IRD are energized but there's no voltage at the small post. If the lack of voltage on the small post means that the relay should be open, that could possibly mean that a past modification is providing voltage on both sides? When I start the engine, the generator battery does get charging voltage from the alternator. Am I correct in assuming that when I start the engine, voltage is applied which closes both main and coach IRDs to allow charging voltage and power through?

[proost]

Originally Posted by Chuck v

When you actuate the coach disconnect switch -- all 12 volt systems on the coach should then have no power...if this is no longer true what systems are still receiving power and is this thought to be from the front battery that starts the generator??? I am still confused on this part, and it seems that some modifications of the system 12 volt wiring may have been done with the solar system and 24 volt inverter were added...

When I actuate the coach disconnect, we lose all 12V and I verified even after I plugged the converter back in.

On another note, I'm going to disconnect the unknown wire in the upper left of the modified schematic in red to see if that affects power to either side of the Coach IRD. Interested there.

[Chuck v]

Phil,


There can be voltage on both sides of the Coach IRD without the relay being energized, because you have the coach batteries on the one side and the generator start battery on the other. What you do not have is current flowing between the two high current relay posts.


When you actuate the coach disconnect, that latching relay interrupts any power from the batteries to the loads as represented by the two binding posts and the downstream wiring shown in the power distribution diagram.


I suspect your 24 to 12 volt converters connect to the Coach Disconnect side of the coach IRD relay, so this is where the 'red wire with question mark' of your modified diagram most likely has the Orion converters joined into the original wiring.


To your other question -- yes the IRD is how the multiple battery banks of the coach were originally charged by the engine when it is running. There are some delays and such involved for safety and other reasons, but it is basically possible to charge/maintain all the batteries when actually on the road. Overcharging is unlikely as few recreational coaches see much road time...



The Main IRD Relay also allows the boosting of the engine starting batteries if needed by the momentary rocker switch on the dash for battery boost...


Chuck

[proost]

Hey Chuck, thanks so much for the assist on this. We just moved over to a full hook up site for the next few days which will allow me to do some more troubleshooting but I actually think I know what the issue is.

I discovered that my new converters are actually not putting out any voltage. Not sure why but in the manual that I have read, you can either have a low power remote switch installed, or allow it to power on using "high current". I can't get fidelity on what high current means so I will post a query on a Victron forum to get some more information.

Thanks again for the back-and-forth super helpful dialogue. I will certainly let you know what I find out but after taking readings everywhere today, everything works perfectly.

[Chuck v]

Phil,


While the 24 to 12 volt non-isolating Orion converters can be connected in parallel (you mentioned that your system has two...) the manual I found online does not speak to other SOURCES of 12 volts connected to the load being maintained/charged. I would hope that it is not sensitive to being driven to a higher voltage than its nominal output (default setting is 13.2 volts...) but it may have issues with your other charger -- the PD9280 -- trying to float to a higher voltage, like the 14.8 volts you cited earlier.


If the jumper is still in the panel of your Orion units, they are set to be always on when their input 24 volts from your lithium stack is present. Exactly what documentation/information/operation manual set did you get with this system?? it seems to be a high end solution, so hopefully you got quality a installation and received full maintenance documentation... I was able to find some good data online about the individual converter and the 3000 watt inverter, but how the system is configured would be up to the installer.


Do you have "as presently wired" diagrams for the added inverter and the 24/12 converters? And by the way, how do you turn off the 24 volt lithium battery stack for service, storage, etc.??


Chuck

[proost]

Chuck,

Not sure about the sensitivity level of the new converters but I will say that when the chassis engine is running it provides voltage to the generator starter battery and likewise, the converters would see that based on what I have seen during my troubleshooting. So, for the past four years, those converters have been operating in that environment while we road trip full-time. Yesterday was the first day that I plugged our old converter in, so I honestly don't think that may have caused an issue with my newer ones.

I'll let you know what else I find out about my set up and although my installer didn't give me a schematic, I'm building one as we speak and will share. Now that I am parked on a concrete pad, I can get under the coach to trace some wiring.