BLACK WATER TANK CRESCENDO NOT DRAINING

[Dapper Dan]

My black tank does not empty when I open the pull handle. Does anyone have the waste plbg diagram for 2005? I think the shower, bath sink drains into the black water tank. Kitchen sink drains into Grey water tank. I've run a snake 15' into the black water tank but nothing came out and no debris was noted. The sensor read 2/3 full and I've eeyeballed the tank and the waste level is above the sensor. There is screw clamps that attach the black and grey pipes too the tanks I think but I haven't dissconnected them. Help!!!!

[RJ82much]

Hmmm, this sounds like a nasty problem. There have been many reports that the floor and tank "plug" fall inside the tank during factory install of the toilet. Do the assemblers say "oh well"? -apparently.

I think you should root & scratch around with your snake or long stiff, hooked wire thru the toilet, in the direction of the tank drain, with the valve open into a sewer dump - if it starts coming out, may God help you if you are in the way or no hose attached!

confirm the model (Cresendo) & floor plan (8406) of your unit so I can check this evening to see if I have any specifics how it is plumbed.

You really don't want to stick anything up the outlet just in case you're successful. Plumber do have devices that perhaps could attach to the outlet, then pull the blade to open, blow in water or air, close the blade, remove the pressure device, attach your sewer line, pull the blade open again & listen for the sweet sound of running water!

Keep us posted on what works...

[RJ82much]

Dan, a little more followup on your problem. I checked a drawing & discovered some information about your 8406 floor plan.

It indicates that your toilet is on the curb side of your unit? Also, your black tank is the forward of the 2 waste water tanks. Does that agree with the layout of the drains (big diameter pipe vs smaller one?)

If this is so, then your kitchen sink, lavatory sink, & shower all drain into the grey water tank. Only the toilet fills into the black tank.

Forget my comment about long hooked wire... I mentioned that because my floorplan places the toilet nearly over the drain. Your's is nearly 12' away as you already know. I think I would try some more with your snake to see if you can move what may be covering the drain. Perhaps you can modify the end to include some barbs or hooks?

Here's another idea, though $'s are involved. Plumbers these days use video cameras to investigate pipe blockages (tree roots, etc - my son just had it done in Chicago). It may be a worthwhile solution.

[Dapper Dan]

The unit I have is an 8408. The tank I can see is directly below the water closet. At the outlet part of the drain that is connected to the discharge pipes, I had felted with my hands & that both tanks has two compartments. How they are connected I don't know or they could be one piece? They do have two wire connected similiar too the one I can see, probably the screw-in sensor. If you have a schematic or any thoughts on how they plumbed this unit it would be of great help.

[RJ82much]

Dan,

I have searched everywhere for a floor plan of your Crescendo 8408, without success. Your holding tanks are supplied by Ameri-Kart. (also formerly Best Plastics). Sun Voyager uses p/n RHT2060. I can't figure out the p/n for your unit, though it likely doesn't matter. Unless something was unusual, you should have 2 identical holding tanks. The tanks are separate from each other. Each tank has a single chamber, though many have a stepped area molded in. Tthere are no baffles or internal structures. The hole for the toilet is cut by Gulf Stream after assembly onto the chassis frame. They make the hole by cutting thru the floor & tank so that all is aligned perfectly. Stories abound of the assembler dropping the "plugs" into the tank.

I have no reason to doubt that your black tank is the forward of the tanks, confirmable by you. This tank should have the larger, 3" drain. I believe your floor plan locates the toilet on the "curbside" of your MH. The drain is driver's side. Your greywater tank services all other fixtures (vanity, kitchen sink, & shower).

There is the possibility that your black tank is plugged with solids if your camping has been primarily at locations with sewer hookups & you leave the drain open for the duration of your stay. Under those conditions, "solids" will tend to accumulate & dry in the tank. The best thing for a black holding tank is to take a bumpy trip with significant fluid in the tank. Dump/rinse/dump before everything gets re-settled.

Sorry for repeating some of this.

[Dapper Dan]

Bob, Thanks for all your suggestions. I'll keep working on it. Hey I just bought this unit over the internet (CrankyApe.com) & trying to get it ready for a fishing trip to Tepic, MX. I've only dump liquid in the black tank but at this point I'm not sure on the curb side which tank that I can see. I guess the panels will have to come off to get a better look. Yesterday I ran the snake a good 20' into what should be the black tank and the only thing happened was the sensor know shows 1/2 full & the tank I can see shows 2/3. It may be that the sensor are hooked up wrong but anyway, its good brain exercise & mine certainly needs it.....LW

[Dapper Dan]

Bob, Thanks for all your suggestions. I'll keep working on it. Hey I just bought this unit over the internet (CrankyApe.com) & trying to get it ready for a fishing trip to Tepic, MX. I've only dump liquid in the black tank but at this point I'm not sure on the curb side which tank that I can see. I guess the panels will have to come off to get a better look. Yesterday I ran the snake a good 20' into what should be the black tank and the only thing happened was the sensor know shows 1/2 full & the tank I can see shows 2/3. It may be that the sensor are hooked up wrong but anyway, its good brain exercise & mine certainly needs it.....LW

[rdlamb]

Dan: Bob is 'all over' this one, but I have experienced this problem and may have another solution.
A complete blockage, no water at all draining out?

If that is the case, a large plug of something is at the drainage gate. In my previous coach this occurred, but a thin trickle of disgusting water would run out when the waste handle was pulled.

It turned out the same person whose parents were never married, cut a hole through the floor and tank and let the plugs drop into the tank.

I have to remove the commode, use a holding tank water wand, flexible snake, gopher grabber (taunted on TV by that smiling guy) and a whole lotta willpower to get everything moving.

Suggestions on clearing a "poop pile", should that be the only thing preventing movement of the tank's contents include: a backflush kit, which has a connection for a hose that blasts back up the exhaust line into the tank, a complete kit that adds an outlet for a water hose that you drill yourself into your holding tank if you can do so, or try Rid-Ex an enzymatic
and bacterial cleaner for septic tanks found at Home Depot or similar stores that percolates for a few days then, a bottle of Pine Sol and a bounce around the country for a while.

[Dapper Dan]

Bob, Thanks for your excellant input. There is a back flush setup on this coach which I've had a little exercise with, however, when the tank is full it will only drain to 2\3, so it must be blocked with probably the cutout and other debris. This tells me I'm going fishing for something I don't like to do, maybe a plumber I know will help me out. If this is a two compartment tank, the cutout must be blocking one of the tanks and retrieving the cutout would be tough. I'll let you know when the problem is exposed.......LW

[Dapper Dan]

Bob, Thanks for your excellant input. There is a back flush setup on this coach which I've had a little exercise with, however, when the tank is full it will only drain to 2\3, so it must be blocked with probably the cutout and other debris. This tells me I'm going fishing for something I don't like to do, maybe a plumber I know will help me out. If this is a two compartment tank, the cutout must be blocking one of the tanks and retrieving the cutout would be tough. I'll let you know when the problem is exposed.......LW

[rdlamb]

Ouch:
Dan, block up the wheels on the opposite side of the coach from the waste gates. That will "dump" more of the holding tanks contents toward the exit. If that produces a lot of results, it means GS drilled the exit pipe to high into the holding tank, and you will always have a certain amount of stuff sloshing around in the tank.
It also means lots of continual smells, and other problems, especially if you store the coach through a winter where the contents may freeze solid.

If not much comes out and the sensor still records 1/3 full, the sensor has crud on it and requires a blasting with a holding tank wand. The backflush systems usually do not spew water high enough to clean the sensors, rather they shoot water across the tank's floor to move stuff along.

I can get mine to work by using a holding tank wand and a lot of tank washing. In the end, I just gave up and my sensors are stuck on 2/3 full, even when the tank is empty.

[Dapper Dan]

Rick,
I think I have the same sensor problem, sensors are reading 2\3 full after draining the tank. My concern is that it doen't take much water (MAYBE 2-3 GALLONS) and then the gauge reads full. Next time I take it out maybe the ice & chemical will clean everything out.
After taking the panels off, I found that the clear tank is the fresh water tank and assumed that it's a perfect rectangle. The other black & grey tanks looks like the top portion is flat across the coach but the bottom part is an unknown configuration. Would GS tell me who made the tanks?
Being a first time RV owner is exciting and perplexing to say the least.
I really appreciate your help and that goes for you too Bob. :roll:

[Dapper Dan]

Rick,
I think I have the same sensor problem, sensors are reading 2\3 full after draining the tank. My concern is that it doen't take much water (MAYBE 2-3 GALLONS) and then the gauge reads full. Next time I take it out maybe the ice & chemical will clean everything out.
After taking the panels off, I found that the clear tank is the fresh water tank and assumed that it's a perfect rectangle. The other black & grey tanks looks like the top portion is flat across the coach but the bottom part is an unknown configuration. Would GS tell me who made the tanks?
Being a first time RV owner is exciting and perplexing to say the least.
I really appreciate your help and that goes for you too Bob. :roll:

[rdlamb]

Dan:
My TM is only 2 seasons old, but I have learned to live with the black water tank sensor being incorrect.
Some things I have learned:

A bag of cubed ice and a large bottle of Pine Sol, prior to a move will slosh around and help clean the tank. The trouble is the Pine Sol will foam, which will leave a film over the sensors. Ergo, I follow up with a thorough water wand spray afterwards. Sensors are still not reading correctly, but usually the black water is now reading only 1/3 full.

I have now switched to a couple of dishwasher tablets to scrub the tank, these do so without foaming. But, I am assuming that the water spot treatment in the tablets is keeping a film from developing on the sensors. JMHO, nothing scientific.

Keep a good chemical treatment in the tank.

Finally, I have a plumber friend that now uses a fiber-optic snake to view sewer lines. Someday I'll beer bribe him and see exactly what is in my holding tank. I think there might be a market for this type of service, and will do some stumping to get said friend to consider offering that service.

[Dapper Dan]

Rick,
I was thinking about putting Sodium Hydroxide with the ice and see what happens. The pine sol I've already tried and that should have rid the tank of any oils. I have a 5 gallon container of Light Water PC 200 that I bought several years ago to clean the floors in a jet engine test cell and that material foams but it will clean concrete floors.
Since you mention the electronical snake, I have a fish TV so for fun I'll try to see how far the camera part will go in.
When I removed the curb side panels, the black water tank was about 4-5 inches deep, and on the driver side much deeper, I felted under the panel there (I havent taking the panel off since my water supply is attached and I didn't want to distrub the piping), the tank on the bottom has a separation which indicates two compartments what for I dunno know.
Hey happy 4th!!!!!!!LW

[rdlamb]

Thanks Dan. July 4th is America's holiday. A very happy 4th to you as well.

I'd recommend not using sodium hydroxide. It causes extreme heat, and has burned through PVC pipe. The holding tanks are not as corrosive resistant as the drain pipes.

The dual compartments have me baffled.

Let me know if the fiber optic trick works.

Otherwise, enjoy you time off, and the holidays.

[Dapper Dan]

Rick,
The fishing camera apparatus was too large for the outlet 4' PVC, so my next step is down the water closet (commode).
If that don't work, was taking the toilet out much of a poblem? It look like that will be my next adventure.
Hey, if you find someone who don't thank every day is a good one, ask them to try to miss one.....LW

[rdlamb]

Hi Dan:
You are correct, every day above ground is a great day.

The commode comes out easily, with the caveat that disconnecting the water supply is the hardest step. You have a seal on the floor that might benefit from replacement, and, depending upon the age of the commode, I'd get a repair kit for the commode's water switch. If you are removing the commode it is a lot easier to rebuild it before putting it back.

The hole cut through the floor is large enough to get a good view of what is in your tank. I'll pass on the details. :lol:

[Dapper Dan]

Rick,
I found an expoded drawing of Sealand's comodes, so,I see what you mean it's an easy job.
You want believe this but last night I left the black water outlet valve open all night and this morning the sensors read empty, put about 1\2 to 1 gallon of liquid, now it read 2\3 full. I'm sure the fresh water tank is empty because I can see it but the sensors read 2\3 full. You expertise is undeniable the best so I'll quit trying to reley on the sensors.
I noticed that you have Safe-T-Plus on your rig. I install one last week simply for the blow-out control. I drove this coach from Ariz to OK, the only wind I had to put with was in NM, TX & OK, the steering was a little different but not bad even when the 18 wheeler past. I've been thinking and reading different post about rear stabilzers, are they worth the effort?
Thanks again for all your wisdom.....LW

[rdlamb]

Hi Dan:
Thank you for your kind words. I enjoy sharing whatever expertise I may have.
My Safe-T-Steer made a huge difference is road drift due to wind and passing semis.
Your question on a rear stabilizer is something I cannot answer. I know they exist, but have not investigated them. The TM comes with a Freightliner raised rail frame, and the rear seems stable to me. Please let me know if you have a rear stabilizer installed, and your thoughts on its performance.
Thanks

[RJ82much]

Dan,

I'm not sure I yet understand the exact nature of your plumbing problem. If you have a considerable amount of fluids in your black tank - even if you introduce it via hose thru the commode, does water trickle, flow, or gush when you pull the blade on the 3" pipe?

I had the occasion to empty my grey & black tanks several times over this holiday weekend. They gushed...

Your tanks are mounted with the tops parallel to your floor, suspended by hangers. The bottom of the tanks are sloped toward the drain (road side). In your MH, your commode is installed over the shallow part of the tank (curb side). Solids must slide, or somehow be encouraged to migrate to the deep end.

Your tanks are most likely manufactured by Ameri-Kart (http://www.ameri-kart.com/), though I'm guessing they are a custom size made especially for Gulf Stream. The part number may be something like "RHT-2060"

Please catagorize how you feel that fluid flows from your black tank.

[rdlamb]

Hi Bob & Dan:

At an RV recycle dealership (Colaw RV in Carthage MO), I viewed some recycled RV parts. One of which was the holding tanks from RV's of unknown manufacture.

I noticed that the tanks are drilled by the RV manufacturer. That makes sense as the tank manufacturer would have no idea what holes would be required.

But, depending upon how the tank is mounted in the coach, the holes placed by the RV manufacturer may not allow total draining of the tank's contents.

I am very interested in what my plumber friend's fiber optic snake will see when he inspects my holding tank. This should occur sometime in August.

Meanwhile, I would power wash out the tank with the gates wide open. If you have the commode removed, you can get a glimpse into the tank, and remove any remaining objects inappropriately placed in the tank.

Unfortunately, one such object I had the displeasure of removing is a certain feminine napkin that one of my relatives did not know would plug my system. In a coach previously owned, this is also a consideration.

[RJ82much]

ummmm, I fished out cigarette packages, toys, and if I remember, the whole cardboard carton from the afore-mentioned cigarettes from a particularly beat (& plugged) Winni that we rented many years back.

The good news about used units is that the bugs have been worked out & repaired.

The bad news about used units is there is always a reason the previous owner got rid of it.

[rdlamb]

RJ:
Hopefully the person who flushed those cigarettes down the commode did so, to give the habit up for good. But I now have a whole new perspective on you, for going to such an extreme, in a rental coach.... :D

[RJ82much]

Rick, I hadn't thought about the "quit smoke" aspect of the black tank contents. I hope the perpetrator choked on his nicotein losenges. As for dipping into the tank, that was a mere tip of the iceberg of problems with that old Winnie... The battery system was so messed up, I tried to keep the engine going once I started it,,, well, until the exhaust manifold separated from the engine. When I attempted to use the generator, it surged so badly that my radio burned up (real fire!) The list was much longer, but you get the picture. Nothing worked. everything was damaged in some way.

The point is, we must try to learn from our experiences. My new-found-knowledge was to never buy or use a used RV ever again. You do purchase other people's problems. Also never ever never never never loan your motor home to someone else (even, or especially to your grown kids), not even "for the weekend".

[rdlamb]

Thanks Bob.
I also echo your "never loan" stance. Been there, got a call from my relative to come get my coach as it broke down. Turns out he ran it out of fuel, and managed to limp it to the side of the road.

Ticket, tow, purge the system, garage fees, time off work, then finding a cigarette burn on my seat, I can attest that never ever again not even to my grown kids shall my coach be lent.

[Dapper Dan]

Bob,
Been out pocket for a few days, the black & grey drains gushes when I pull the plug. It may be that I've paid too much stock in the sensor panel or maybe I worry too much. Thanks again for the help....LW

[rdlamb]

Dan; Bob & all:

Had a plumber friend of mine use his fiber-optic lense on my outlet from commode to tank to diagnose what is going on with these tanks.

There is a 90 deg elbow, then another 90 degree elbow and drop into the black water tank. The first 90 degree elbow is connected to the commode. The run is about 17 inches to the second 90 degree elbow, the drop into the black water tank. There are troubles. The "run" is flat, so things do not move downhill.

The insert into the black water tank is on the side of the tank, not the middle of the top of the tank. Ergo, slow moving things drop down the side of the tank and build up. The "sensor" is on the same side as the dropping stuff. On flush, and the sensor is covered.

There is a flush spigot on the curb side of the tank, at the bottom of the tank. Will not allow flushing of the sensors.

Overall, everything will work, and nothing requires immediate attention. Other than the somewhat brackish procedure, the tanks and pipes are ok, just not optimally placed. The main problem is that I cannot rely on my sensors until I have them repositioned or replaced.

[RJ82much]

In other words, our "assembler" has purchased all the right parts from quality manufacturers, gathered them in a pile, and minus any thought, cobbled them together to call the results a waste system on a RV?

* flat runs of waste pipe
* side entry into waste tank
* flush nozzles that can't flush anything
* level sensors that can't sense because they are always covered....

Yup, a well engineered system.

[rdlamb]

Hi Bob:
Amazing what you can see with one of those optical sewer snakes. Well, I guess I will try and have a new flush system put into the tank, higher than the one in there, hopefully that will hit the sensors and clean the sh.tuff off them.

I do not know how to increase the toilet flush. Other than I put in the newest Thetford Acqua Magic Plus, and it really is an excellent throne.

As a last word, however, at least GS has survived the downturn in the economy. Alfa, National, Alpine, and others, have not.