Very soft floor in my 2006Endura right over the holdingtanks

[amman1725]

Hey all! Hope everyone had a great thanksgiving; we just got back from the WA coast where we actually had sun on Friday! First test run for the new roadmaster brakemaster system I installed for a towed jeep; It worked great! But now for the question that has been bugging me for quite some time:

The floor just outside the shower is very soft and spongy; it continues into the bathroom; I took some measurements and the soft area is right above where the holding tanks are below; Just forward and aft of the soft area the floor is firm and fine; you can feel what appear to be floor joists that run from one side of the coach to the other; they are about 18" or so apart (I haven't measured that part yet); and its spongy right between these joists; there are no roof leaks that I know of or can see any signs of; the rv stays in a covered garage when not in use; there is no evidence of a water leak from below although the holding tanks and fuel tank block most of the view; the water pump does not cycle so there is not a water line leak; the shower drains fine; the only thing that is wierd is that when we use the shower the pump pressure is not what is used to be and pulsates a little; all the other faucets work fine with great pressure; This feels like a water rotting subfloor issue but where is the water coming from? plus there are no drips or stains; has anyone else ran into this problem? I realy don't want to cut up the floor and look but I don't want my wife or I to fall through the floor either! Our dealership went bankrupt and disappeared (no big loss they were incompetent); Poulsbo RV is the new "Gulfstream service center" but we've had some problems with their mechanics not knowing crud about Gulfstream specific issues such as slide out valve assemblies etc... Thanks in advance for any info or advice you might have; this forum has been very helpful to me in the past and is the first place I come searching for answers; Thanks again, Jeff.

[michaelmangine]

we had a leak in the wall behind the shower controls that bubbled our bath floor it was a very slow leak out of the shower control connections

[mfa]

...The floor just outside the shower is very soft and spongy; it continues into the bathroom; ...

What model 2006 Endura do you have? I have a 2006 Ultra 6316 that has a leak (apparently) from the roof area when I drive in the rain. The water runs out across the floor from underneath the shower area.

You live in a very rainy area. If you have a similar problem and the water is getting trapped in between the "vinyl" floor covering and the sub-flooring, then it could cause the symptoms you describe.

[amman1725]

Its a W 6331 EH; We've never seen any water or bubbling on the floor; At one time I thought maybe we had separated the floor from the frame rails due to too heavy of a trailer (I've heard of that happening), but the spongy floor is only between these two floor cross joints; the master bedroom floor is fine and we've always used a weight distributing hitch; we tow a 26' enclosed pace american car hauler with 8.5' ceilings rated at 12k; we are usually at 10k or less on the trailer weight; we had to flush out the stock tranny fluid and replace it with AMS synthetic after a trip last summer where it was over a 100 degrees on I5 and we triggered the failsafe in the tranny; after that I bought and installed a tranny temp guage so I can keep an eye on it; Off topic side question: Why (other than being cheap) did Gulfstream not install a tranny temp guage? the wiring plug was right there behind the dash and all the tranny hookups were already done; all I had to do was buy the guage for $90 or so and plug it in? that $90 guage might have saved me from overheating the tranny...

at one time we did used to get wetness on the carpet just outside the shower but that was from a messy shower user whom has now learned to be more careful;

So once again I am at a loss; I only see one realistic way to figure this out and that is to cut up the floor and see what we can see; I hate to do that though; the other option is to drop the holding tanks and fuel tank and see what we can see;

Any help or advice will be greatly apreciated, Thanks, Jeff.

[mfa]

It sounds to me like you are overloaded. I think your GCWR is 26,000 lbs and your GVWR is 19,500 lbs. That leaves you a 6,500 lb towing capacity.

I would guess that your actual weight is around 19,000 lbs, so you might have 7,000 lbs towing capacity. (I have a model 14 inches shorter than yours and mine weighs in at 17,800 lbs.)

I don't know if the overloading would cause the floor problem, though. It could certainly have caused your transmission problems.

[Dexter]

I have seen the fixture that gulfstream uses in there shower. If it is a 2 handle faucet set on 4 " centers same as a bath lavetory faucet. I wiil bet the fixture behind the shower wall has cracked. This is a week point in the water system. If you have ever hooked up to an overpressure or even a high pressure source it will crack at this week link. Its an easy fix if like most the fixture is mounted in a box that is then mouinted to the shower. Hope this helps I had to replace an entire section of flooring and sub-floor to learn this info. Again hopes this helps.

[amman1725]

Thanks Dexter, so can I access this by simply pulling the faucet assembly in the shower and looking behind it? or is there a different method of accessing this weak poiint? I think the subfloor is shot at this point but I will tackle this one step at a time; water leak first and then the floor which will be a pain trying to replace it without it looking like a patch..

Thanks MFA, I know I am at or above the GCVW for the Kodiak chassis but I couldn't figure out how it would only effect that one section of floor; so I think Dexter is probably correct; The trailer is up for sale so the weight issue will no longer be an issue; with the economy tanked business has been in the proverbial toilet so some of the extra toys have to go; Not my endura though! My motorhome is second only to my house in priority so things will have to get a lot worse for me to even consider selling it or letting it go back to the bank!

Thanks for the help and I look forward to any advice/insight you might have as to how to get to that weak plumbing link, Thanks again, Jeff.

[Dexter]

you are correct fix the water leak first, You must remove the faucet mounts to the point were you can see the back side while the water is still hooked up. This most like involves turning the water off disconnecting the faucet remove the mounting hardware and reconnect the faucet and turn the water on I believe you will see a fine mist of water comming from the mixing tube area. I have experiance in the subfloor work when you get to that. The reason the soft spot is limited is because the steel cross members act as blocking for the warer wicking action that proceeds across the floor untill it hits a block.

[amman1725]

Thanks Dexter; I will start to tear into this on Friday; What did we ever do before the internet? When I get to the floor repair I'll hit you up for some more advice; I've got a friend who is a remodelling carpenter and he can probably do the floor; I want to avoid having any seams if I can which means we'll probably have to tear out all the linoleum in that area and replace it; the subfloor shouldn't be a probblem in that I am pretty good with framing and such; Thanks for your help, I'll keep you posted, Jeff.

[Dexter]

I've spent the last 40 years working on cars or home building. Glad to help. Pays back for some of the help I receive.

[amman1725]

I hear that; I truly believe that you recieve what you give; I haven't had time to tear out the faucet yet but have one last question; if the faucet is leaking behind the shower wall why doesn't the water pump cycle when the faucets are turned off but the water pump is left on? if there is a leak shouldn't the water pressure bleed off which would then cause the water pump to cycle again to bring the pressure back up? Only one way to find out for sure I guess, and thats to tear into it and see whats going on; I will post back once I've torn it apart and figured it out; Thanks for your help, Jeff.

[Texas TC]

When my faucet fittings loosened up due to vibration over time, that is how I knew I had an issue. The water pump was cycling when all of the water was allegedly tuned off. The good news is, it is a very easy repair if that is the problem. I simply removed the four screws that hold the faucet assembly in place, pulled the mounting piece away from the wall, tightened the fittings and reattached to the wall. I was lucky I caught it before we left on a trip. I turned the pump on to add water to the toilet and add chemicals and heard the pump cycle.

I have not found any "soft spots" anywhere in the coach (knock on wood).

Good luck!

[Dexter]

The leaks happen when the water is turned on in the area where the hot and cold mix. Due to everone using water saving devices that increase water pressure to simulate high water flow. So when the water is turned off there will be no leak. If you find out for sure there is a water leak with valves turned off then this is not where your problem is at. Does your pump cycle with all valves off. If no then this is almost certainly the area of your leak. Since we started this I have been noticeing other valves in all types of RV's. They are all the same with minor differances. This faucet is commonly used in the mobile home industry and is the best place to find a replacement mine was 40 bucks

[amman1725]

Thanks Dexter, that makes sense; next week is a dead week for my company so this is on my list! Thanks for your help and advice, without this forum and help from fellow rvers like you I'd be blindly cutting up my coach! Thanks again and hopefully someday I'll be able to repay the favor;

[amman1725]

Wow, sorry for the delay; project got put on hold for a while; I removed the shower plumbing access panel in the closet to the left of the shower and accessed the fixture for the shower and there is no evidence of any leaks; I charged the water system and checked, then ran the shower both hot and cold and checked and still no leaks; plus there is no staining back there indicating a leak;

The number one thing that has me confused is:

When you turn on the water pump and pressurize the water system and then make sure all faucets are off with no drips the water pump does not cycle! If it was cycling then I would have a water leak somewhere in the plumbing but the pump does not cycle! The coach stays in an enclosed rv garage when were not using it so I still don't think its a roof leak; plus the floor is only soft in the one section;

Any advice?

Next step will be to cut out the section of floor that is soft and stick my head down there and see what we can see;

I thought it might be a leak in one of the drain pipes but that doesn't make any sense in that if a pipe was leaking we would have wastewater on the ground under the coach when in use;

Thanks again for any thoughts and/or advice! Jeff.

[PORTABLE PARADISE]

Hey,

Sounds like you are chasing the same mystery as me. Check out my post .. I think that I have solved the mystery leak... is no leak but poor construction.

See the post about frame problems ... listed by Portable Paradise.

[Dexter]

If the pump is not cycling then its leaking whe the water is turned on. You are correct you will need to remove the soft wood. Maybe the leak is on the drain of the shower There is a large flange nut under the shower pan that squezes a rubber seal against the underside of the shower. The rubber seal can harden over time and leak this action is speeded up due to the long periods with no water on the seal to keeep it lubrcated. Are there any other sources of water in this area.

[amman1725]

Shower drain leak, excellent suggestion; I'll have to take a look and see how to access that fitting; can it be accessed from the top via removing the drain grate? As far as other water sources go, I don't think there are any at that point; I would assume the feeder line for the kitchen sink runs up the side of the frame rail and then goes up to the sink;

In regards to the structural integrity of the floor, I don't think thats it in that the floor is mush not just sagging; if feels like particle board thats gotten saturated;

I'll go take a look tonight or this weekend and see about that drain; I would have thought that we would have seen wastewater from the shower on the ground while camping on a paved pad if that had been the case; although if its just leaking a little each time that could be enough to continue to saturate the flooring but not enough to drip onto the ground;

As always thanks for all your help and advice, I'll keep you posted;

[amman1725]

Well, I pulled the shower drain grate and looked down the pipe; the pea-trap is holding water so that is not leaking; the grey plumber's putty they used around the shower drain is still tacky and pliable so I don't think thats leaking; as far as the large nut you were talking about around the pipe which presses against the rubber seal; how do I access that? I looked around and can't find an access panel; I thought maybe the carpet would pull off on the panel that runs along the bottom of the shower enclosure but couldn't see a way to dislodge it to gain access under the shower;

I might have to just bite the bullet and start cutting flooring and carpet but there has to be an easier way to track down the problem;

Any advice will be greatly apreciated, Thanks for your help!

[michaelmangine]

could it be just from a leaky shower pan or drain?

[amman1725]

I checked the drain grate this afternoon and the seal looks good and there is water in the pee-trap so thats not leaking; The shower pan is one piece and in excellent condition ie no cracks or indications of damage;

Still got me fuddled....

[mfa]

On ours I noticed that if you lean against the shower wall when you are in the shower, you can open a gap in the seam where the wall meets the floor pan. I took some clear silicon caulk and went around all the seams.

[amman1725]

Thanks MFA, I'll check on that; If I remember correctly though our shower is a two piece; we've got the floor pan which wraps around and comes up about eight inches and then we've got the walls that slip down on the inside and overlap so any water running down the walls falls to the pan; I'll check on it this weekend and see if I am remembering incorrectly; Thanks for your help, this site has always been great; I try to scan it and look for questions I might be able to help out with to pay it back;

[Dexter]

The nut and rubber can't be seen looking down drain it has to be seen from under side. The water line to the sink is not a likely candidate as a line usually only fails at a junction or connection. If the particle board as gotten soft even a small amount it really needs replacement. If you stop the leak maybe the particle board will dry up and get hard again, but it usually swells and gets brittle. In any event You need to see under the carpet or tile. Its not unusual to have to make a hole to get to plumbing fixtures. ( The shower Mixer valve in your home prime example) I still believe the leak is only when the water is on. And you are correct that a small leak would be soaked up before dripping. You could try letting the water run in the shower for double or triple the usual time, I don't recommend this because the water may spread the damaged floor. I think you just need to go ahead and take up the flooring and anything else that's is in the way. I think you will find the job much easier than you think once you see it all removed. The way to put it back will be obvious

[amman1725]

I agree Dexter; Next step, cut out a section of linoleum and subfloor and see whats going on;

[DaveWest]

I have the same problem in my 2005 Yellowstone. Same location, and I do think it's water damage because in the middle of winter I went in there and stepped on the spot and it crunched as if ice crystals were crushing. Please do report how hard it was to get the floor fixed, I am trying to sell it and as soon as people step on that spot they immediately are not interested in buying. Just like yours, it's ONLY between two floor joists, everything fore and aft is fine, solid as a rock.
Thanks
Dave W.

[PORTABLE PARADISE]

Jeff,
I have the GS 6340 and the soft floor in the bathroom/ hall area above the axle. This is caused by the leveling jacks. If I run the rear jacks down, the floor in the bathroom sinks about 1/2 inch below the bathroom wall. Also the sidewall on the bedroom slide punches out ... and it cracked the metal wall frame.

And no.. I am not gonna fix it.. Just gonna run the wheels off of it and go.

[kart74]

We had a 2005 Endura that had the same problem. No leaks but spongy floor. Ours was the model with the shower and everything in the bathroom, yours must be the other with the shower on the outside of the stool and lav? Anyway, Enduras were know for a soft spot there and we had to take it to the factory to get it fixed.

[Nutravlr]

How did the factory at GS fix the spongy floor? I fixed it by putting a brace length-wise in the area above the axle. The problem seems to me to be just too much space between the floor joists in front and behind the axle, it is further apart than the other similar spaces. So our local motorhome people made me a brace, works quite well.

[Ellie]

I just bought a 2005 ultra super c with a soft spot in the same place. Right outside the bathroom. The dealership assured me that it was a support issue common in gulf streams. That sounded like he was blowing smoke, glad I checked here. We're going to take things apart and add insulation so we will check the shower while we're at it. the dealership said they were going to add support to the flooring in that area before we pick it up... thanks for posting!

[Sudsy]

My 05 Sun Voyager had quite a bit of soft wood especially on the right side near where the rear slide meets the body. Initially thought that was the problem so I inspected the slide seals and cleaned and coated them with some "Slide Seal Restorer" even thought these seals looked fine. Sprayed with hose from all angles and could not find water.


Moved on and decided to check out the function of the side by side reefer and Ice Maker. Well the boxes chilled down just fine and the ice maker kept cycling but there was no water reaching the cube tray. Oh well left it over night and the next morning there was water dripping from the slide room. I discovered the water line for the ice maker had came off and every time the ice maker asked for water a measured amount was spewed out on the floor under the reefer and over the water heater and furnace. I have repaired all but one small area under the big slide but not exposed either in or out of the cabin. The flooring in mine is pressed wood. The areas I repaired are now 3/4 plywood. I plan to pull the bed and pedestal and replace the entire bedroom floor next winter.



Sudsy


Oh yea, that reefer weighs 260 lbs. took three of us. two to stabilize while I reconnected and clamped water line. I think either someone pulled on it or tried to blow too much air thru it .

[Restorium]

You could test out the theory that the leak is in the shower wall by somehow plugging the shower head, turning on the shower, and see if the pump runs. That would indicate whether there is a leak there or not without tearing anything apart.

[Sudsy]

You could test out the theory that the leak is in the shower wall by somehow plugging the shower head, turning on the shower, and see if the pump runs. That would indicate whether there is a leak there or not without tearing anything apart.




On my coach (and most other campers I have seen) there is an access panel on the bottom side of the shower enclosure. If that is present it is there so you can repair a leaky drain. (Hum)



If there is one then remove the cover and look in there. Try running the water and shutting the shower head down to trickle. See if there are leaks. Actually you will know as soon as you open the panel if that's where the leak is.



Sudsy