Slow crank no start

[Dave J]

Hi,

This is an epic saga!

I have a 2003 Gulfstream Friendship Quattro. The unit has a 3126 7.2l diesel engine. It has 80,000 miles on the clock. I bought the unit in October 2016 and hired a driver to deliver it to my home about 2,000 miles away. It was driven here and according to him it performed perfectly. It was winterized and parked in my driveway for the winter. When I came to start it in the spring of 2017, it cranked very slowly and wioud not start. I figured oxidised or rusted battery leads, so I cleaned them all. Still slow crank! I took the batteries out and tested each on a car I have. Both performed perfectly. I then figured perhaps the solenoid. I finally found the exact model (new) and purchased it. After installation still slow crank and no start. I then figured that the starter motor was flakey so finally found the identical starter motor (new) purchased and installed it. Still slow crank Finally I gave in and purchased two new batteries (1000CCA) group 31. Made no difference, the crank is too slow to start the unit. So now I have absolutely no idea what else to look at.Now that we seem to be getting the odd day above freezing, I wanted to sort this out hopefully before my better half gets on my back about a wasted purchase that we have never been able to use! Phew! Any help would be greatly appreciated .

Thnks


Dave

[Sudsy]

Sorry, read it again.

[Burkejonathan]

I’m having the Exact same problem with our Gulfstream T 40 B at this very moment!

I didn’t change the starter but had it running the other day on a jump. After replacing the batteries, and bridging the house with the engine I can’t even get it to start.

Anyone have advice for us?

Thank you,

Jonathan

2007 T 40 B

[Dave J]

Hi Jonathan,

If and when I figure mine out I shall message you. Unfortunately it may be a few days as we have been dumped on with close to a foot of snow today, so no climbing underneath right now.

Cheers


Dave

[Sudsy]

You both need to figure out a way to warm those engines up. I don't know sh@@# about diesel motors but I do know they don't start well if they are cold. Build a fire. Take some big smoldering logs and put them under the engine. Warm up some big rocks! Get a dipstick block heater or an engine heater blanket but warm them up somehow. Then they will start. If you do get them started start them every day while its cold.



Sudsy

[Dave J]

Hi Sudsy,

Thanks for your reply.

I don' think my problem can be just heat because this has been a problem for a year now and our summer was hot but it still cranked over very slowly. Actually it will only crank for about 4-5 seconds.

I think though your idea of a block heater is excellent and I shall purchase and install one ... when the white stuff leaves!

Thanks again.

Cheers

Dave

[GStream40]

You should already have an engine heater installed. The cord/plug should be hanging down from the top of the compartment where the power cord is
installed.
The heater plug will need to be plugged into a 120 volt electric source for a couple of hours.

Ron

[GStream40]

One other thing, check to see that your engine start batteries are wired/connected correctly so that you are drawing 12 volts from both at the same time.

Ron

[Dave J]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your 2 replies, I will not be able to check for a while as we are heavily snowed under and it looks like with the predicted temperatures there will be no meling for at least 7 days. As soon as I can I will respond in this thread.

Cheers


Dave

[BadX]

Very similar experience with our SN6331. Have you tried jumping it off? Our SN was doing the same thing and I figured the batteries were just weak. Put the charger which has a start boost. At first it did the same thing with the boost on, put it back down to 20 amp charge for about 30 mins came back out, turned the boost back up and cycled the glow plugs a couple times and she fired right up. Just something else to try if you haven't. House batteries fired the generator right up...which was weird because last year I had to the same thing to them a couple times.

[Frutza]

Dave , you probably need to use a volt meter, check your battery voltage during crank, then check the voltage at the starter during crank, you need to be over 10.5 volt min.
Cats use the engine oil to fire the injectors, so if the engine isn't turning over fast enough, problem, also, because of that, these engines like good clean oil, use a high quality oil and filters, change about 7500 miles and she will thank you. now when you do get it running, run some good injector cleaner thru in, maybe some hot shot secret, My personal experience, I have a work truck with a 3126 over 100k, bear to start when its cold, I think it needs injectors, boss doesn't want to pay for it, my motor home has a C7 30k, fires right up.
Now your pretty far north, are your temps below 32f?, is your block heater working? a quick test is to plug it in then unplug it after about a minute and see if it draws a spark, your unplugging it under load and there should be little spark, or put a torpedo heater aimed at the oil pan for 45 min or so

[eegenoli2]

Two things. First of all you are fighting cold weather that will make your fuel gel next it will cause your oil to thicken that will put a drag on your engine.like the gentleman suggested earlier you need a block heater and also make sure your batteries are hooked up correctly because you are also fighting about 20:1 compression ratio.

[Dave J]

Thank you all for the usefull and informative replies. I am awaiting a break in the weather so that I can methodically put your thoughts ans ideas into practise. I doubt i will be able to do anything for about a week as I have about 2 feet packed aroung the RV and it is snowing again!

As soon as i can I will post back the results.


Cheers

Dave

[Dave J]

Hi All,

Finally I'm back.The layers of ice and snow under the RV finally melted on Saturday. I was finally able to test voltages today. The voltage at the starter motor fluctuates wildly. So I removed all batteries out of the circuit and initially removed all connectors off the negative post on the starter motor. Upon further examination, I noticed one of the cables seems significantly damaged. I have attached a picture. This cable vanishes into a harness about 2 inches in diameter with a number of other cables presumably alternator etc.. This harness then travels toward the engine. I cannot access this from under the unit. I went into the bedroom, removed the air mattress and all air connectors and was able to access a small hatch which gives a bit of a view of the engine but no real access. It looks like the motorhome was fitted onto the completely wired frame! It may well be necessary to remove the entire bedframing to get better access. Any thoughts? I think this cable is the negative connector to the block, but I cannot confirm without being able to get there. Any thoughts on what exactly happened to the cable?

Cheers


Dave

[Chuck v]

That looks like pretty severe damage alright!! Clearly the wire overheated and the individual strands were likely glowing from the way they appear oxidized and 'crispy' so that section will have to be replaced. You can likely test this as the root cause by replacing/bypassing this path with a very heavy cable such as #2 or #0 welding cable run directly from the negative of the engine starting battery pair to the negative post of the starter. Make absolutely sure this is the negative wire we are talking about here -- don't just assume it is because of the black insulating cover... With the temporary welding cable jumper in place, see if the engine will crank at speed and start. Once you have done this then the real work begins as you determine how to do a permanent repair.

Chuck

[Dave J]

Hi Chuck,

Thanks.

This cable is not the one that goes directly to the negative post on the battery set, but it enters an approximately 2 inch diameter harness that makes its way toward the caterpillar engine. 2 problems here, firstly to ensure 100% that it is a negative cable, I would need to trace it to its destination on the engine which is currently completely inaccessible (I have opened a small hatch under the bed however it looks like I may have to remove the entire bed structure in the bedroom perhaps to reveal added access hatches to get to the harness destination???) and secondly one wonders, if this cable super heated, what further damage has occurred inside the harness!

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers


Dave

[Chuck v]

Dave,

If it got that hot along its whole length there may indeed be collateral damage -- the only way to know for sure is inspect it along the entire run. You do need to determine if that is a ground lead or a voltage lead of some sort. You can measure the voltage relative to a known ground connection if you connect a small battery where the engine starting pair was originally connected. Use of a small battery will prevent any temp rise for a short duration test.

If that is a voltage lead and not a ground wire that is damaged, or if adjacent wiring is also melted, then things are perhaps even worse than they appear in your photo. You will most certainly need the help of a really skilled shop at that point.

Chuck

[Dave J]

Thanks Chuck,

I am going to try to inspect ... as I said the really hard part is actually getting there. I will attach a voltmeter to the damaged section and hopefully using the ohm setting locate which cable it is at the engine side. Assuming it is a negative feed, my thought is that it is the ground to the block. Assuming the block side is rusted and oxidised I can clean that up prior to fitting a new cable.

I will advise but it may be a few days as we are due more snow.

Cheers


Dave

[Dave J]

Update as the saga continues!

We have nice warm weather now so I started working on my problem again. Firstly I was unable to access the engine block ground connector so I purchased #1 cable and directly connected new connections from starter neg to the block and chassis. This did not help. Secondly I went to a local auto repair shop and borrowed a battery load tester to double check the "new" batteries and found that the supposed 1000 CCA's were only 550 CCA's each!! So called the battery store and complained bitterly. They exchanged them and I load tested the new ones which showed just on 1000 CCA's each

Still slow crank. I then had a thought and asked my wife to crank it while I was underneath observing the starter. The starter became extremely hot within a couple of seconds while trying to crank. I now wonder if possibly I have a seized accessory maybe the alternator?

Any thoughts???


Cheers


Dave

[Sudsy]

That starter needs to be rebuilt. If you were here in S. Maryland I would have you take it to a Mennonite shop. They do lots of big truck work around here.



Sudsy

[Frutza]

You need to check the voltage at the starter, it needs to 10.5 volt minimum, as the voltage goes down the amps go up, amps = heat
Uh, that's cranking voltage, the place you borrowed the meter from may have one, and a lot of times ones built into a load tester

[Restorium]

Bad starter.

[Dave J]

Hi

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Update.

The voltage at the starter motor is 11.2v.

I spoke with freightliner who advised that Nippon Denso starter motors were in fact used on many of their models and that the one I removed was probably the original unit. I replaced the old one with the exact same model. I have now removed the new starter and taken it to an auto electrician. It tested perfectly. So I am left with something else perhaps a seized accessory like an alternator. If so I would need to release the accessory belt/s to test. Again a problem in terms of access.

Any thoughts would be great!

Cheers


Dave

[Restorium]

Hi

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Update.

The voltage at the starter motor is 11.2v.

I spoke with freightliner who advised that Nippon Denso starter motors were in fact used on many of their models and that the one I removed was probably the original unit. I replaced the old one with the exact same model. I have now removed the new starter and taken it to an auto electrician. It tested perfectly. So I am left with something else perhaps a seized accessory like an alternator. If so I would need to release the accessory belt/s to test. Again a problem in terms of access.

Any thoughts would be great!

Cheers


Dave

There's the problem. 11.2 at starter will definitely cause slow cranking.

[Sudsy]

Hi

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Update.

The voltage at the starter motor is 11.2v.

I spoke with freightliner

Any thoughts would be great!

Cheers


Dave


Even with the coach plugged in or with the generator online (converter running) you still only see 11.2 Vdc at the starter? If so you're dropping a lot of voltage from the battery to the starter. I don't know sh@# about diesels but that doesn't sound right. Check the terminal ends for corrosion. There is some significant resistance to drop that much.



Sudsy

[Restorium]

I've seen a bad glow plug make the voltage drop that much at the starter.... and it cranked slowly.

[Dave J]

Hi,

Thanks. I am going to get a new multimeter. Mine is 11 years old and may well not be very accurate.

Cheers


Dave

[Dave J]

OK new multimeter and voltage at starter shows as 12.3-12.4.

So something else perhaps a seized accessory, but how to even get to the belts to remove accessory belt/s for testing! The access point under the bed is minute and it seems like one has to get there through the removal of radiator, shrouds hydraulic reservoir etc first. Anyone know the best way on Gulfstream 2003 friendship?

Thanks,

Dave

[Restorium]

I would check it with the key on and see if it stays the same.

[Dave J]

Hi.

Key was on.

Cheers


Dave

[Restorium]

So after you bought it, and had it delivered, you never started it once, never heard it start?


No telling where the friction is then. I think I would hook up my jumper box and maybe it would crank fast enough to start.


From a mechanic's point of view I've only seen this with corrosion on the cylinder walls or a spun main bearing. Never an accessories causing slow cranking.

[Dave J]

Hi Restorium,

It may help if I detail the full history.

I bought the unit used about 3.5 years ago. I hired a driver to drive it about 3,000 kms to where I live. He reported that it worked perfectly. After that my wife and I had a few short trips to local campgrounds with grandkids.

The problem started the beginning of the winter before last. We had just returned from a short trip to a local (25k distance) campground. I parked the unit in my driveway (where it has remained ever since), extended the leveling jacks and winterised it. I plugged into shore power and turned the battery switches off (Coach battery inside the unit and starting batteries in their compartment). It sat for about 5.5 months before I came to start it. I do not recall the temperature when I came to start it at the end of winter, but I do recall NOT plugging in the block heater. The cranking started off and actually seemed normal maybe a little slow at first but nothing like now. After about 10-15 seconds it seemed as if the batteries were running down and shortly after it would not crank. I placed the batteries on a 40 amp charge rate and left them to charge for about 1.5 hours. When I came to try and start it the ignition key did nothing. Using my multimeter I determined that the battery on/off switch in the compartment had ceased to function and remained permanently in the off position. I removed the switch out of the circuit simply by bypassing it. From that moment on I have had this slow crank.

I have cleaned all leads put 2 new earths from starter to chassis and to block. It has a new starter and a new solenoid.

Any thoughts??

Cheers


Dave

[Sudsy]

How long of a run is it from the batteries to the starter?



Sudsy

[Dave J]

Hi Sudsy,

Its about 6-7 foot following the path of the #1 cable.

[Restorium]

I would keep testing.

The next thing I would do is run a jumper cable from the starter to the ground side of the battery and try that. This will eliminate any chance of it being a bad ground.

[Restorium]

IF it was being caused by an accessory it would probably be the AC compressor. There should be some evidence of shredded belt material near the pulley. See if you can get a mirror and light in there and see what the belt looks like. If the pulley is seized there will be some damage to the belt being dragged over a stopped pulley.

[Sudsy]

Would it be possible to run a parallel cable using the jumper cables from the battery positive to the positive connection on the starter. Not the solenoid. This would show if the positive cable is dropping too much voltage.


Sudsy

[Restorium]

You have to work with the story.

What could have happened over 5 months of sitting in the winter?

Battery is the most suspect. Then the starter.

After that, some sort of corrosion somewhere.

Then, coolant froze because of water in it. Cracked the block or pushed out a head gasket.

Least likely would be a seized front accessory, especially when there wasn't any evidence of malfunction before it being parked.

[Sudsy]

You have to work with the story.

What could have happened over 5 months of sitting in the winter?

Battery is the most suspect. Then the starter.

After that, some sort of corrosion somewhere.

Then, coolant froze because of water in it. Cracked the block or pushed out a head gasket.

Least likely would be a seized front accessory, especially when there wasn't any evidence of malfunction before it being parked.




I thought they were new batteries and the started is also new and just bench checked this week.


Sudsy

[Restorium]

I thought they were new batteries and the started is also new and just bench checked this week.


Sudsy

Exactly.

That leaves a fairly short list of possibilities. Not looking good at this point.

[Dave J]

Yeah, I agree not looking good at this point. A pal of mine who is an auto tech had a look and he is stumped too. It does not help that Gulfstream canceled RV's in 2007 and even the dealer close by refuses to work on them. The next closest is about $2000 tow distance!

[Restorium]

Since it happened over the cold months I would check your antifreeze strength. Process of elimination.

[Sudsy]

Have you tried disabling the glow plugs to see if they are dragging the voltage down?



Any chance of getting a mechanic from a local shop (bus company or dealer for motor company (Cummins?).



Sudsy

[Washington travler]

From my limited knowledge I will take a stab at it. Try taking out the injectors and have someone turn it over. See what comes out. Maybe an injector is flooding engine. Diesels must turn 2-300 rpm to start. Send off an oil sample and see what is in there.

[Restorium]

Dave,
You had that fried ground cable. A bad ground will cause slow cranking. I would run a jumper cable from the ground on the battery to the starter.

[Sudsy]

Dave,
You had that fried ground cable. A bad ground will cause slow cranking. I would run a jumper cable from the ground on the battery to the starter.




Look back at post #35 and #37. Never did see a response to those ideas.



Sudsy

[Restorium]

Makes you want to go over there ….

Where are you Dave?

[Dave J]

Hi Restorium,

I am in a place called Grassie which is located half way between Toronto and Niagara Falls.

Cheers


Dave

[Dave J]

Hi Sudsy,

I have run parallel cables directly from the starter batteries to the starter motor with no change. I have also replaced ground cables from the starter to the chassis and engine block. A local auto technician dropped by last Friday to have a look. Although not a diesel tech, he too was stumped. Today I will do an antifreeze test. I will also try to see the accessory belts to determine if they are fraying due to a seized accessory. The oil was replaced 3,405 kms ago.

Cheers


Dave

[Restorium]

Hi Restorium,

I am in a place called Grassie which is located half way between Toronto and Niagara Falls.

Cheers


Dave

Not too far from me at all. Took the beast to Niagara Falls a couple years ago. Spent two weeks at the park on the lake. Went the long way there, through Ohio, or I would have driven right past you.
Used to buy antique auto parts in Canada. Nice vintage interior parts.

[Restorium]

Hi Sudsy,

I have run parallel cables directly from the starter batteries to the starter motor with no change. I have also replaced ground cables from the starter to the chassis and engine block. A local auto technician dropped by last Friday to have a look. Although not a diesel tech, he too was stumped. Today I will do an antifreeze test. I will also try to see the accessory belts to determine if they are fraying due to a seized accessory. The oil was replaced 3,405 kms ago.

Cheers


Dave
Did the tech have any ideas as to why the ground cable melted?

[Restorium]

Are there any check engine codes?

[Restorium]

Did the air conditioning work the last time you drove it? They usually only seize when they don't work.

[Restorium]

Did you try cranking with the boost switch on?

[Restorium]

Do you want to trade even up?:D

[Dave J]

Are there any check engine codes?
No engine codes

[Dave J]

Did the air conditioning work the last time you drove it? They usually only seize when they don't work.

Don't use dash air condi normally run genny and turn on front ceiling air.

[Dave J]

Yup,

No help

[Dave J]

Do you want to trade even up?:D
Trading up or down is looking good at this stage!!

[Dave J]

To all,

I wanted to thank you for the great input. The saga is now over 1.5 years later. After replacing cables, batteries, 2 starter motors, solenoid, 2 100 amp circuit breakers nothing had worked. Finally with great difficulty (no space) I was able to access the engine area. Unbelievably both the alternator and A/C compressor were seized. I replaced them and the idler and belt and she now starts like a dream.

Thank you all again for all your great suggestions and help.

Cheers


Dave

[Chuck v]

Dave -- glad you got it sorted out.

[Big Shasta]

Just in time to have it buried in snow again? Stinks that you missed the whole season but glad it's back on the road.