Electrical System

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

I have a '94 Tourmaster 8391 and I am trying to understand it's electrical system.

Background: Recently, all batts were completely drained and required a charge. After charging, the coach started right up as did the gen. Each day since then, (Sunday night until today, its Wednesday) I've been going out to the coach to make sure everything is holding its charge. No issues. This the result for today:

-Engine starts right up. I have to wait for about a minute and then the gen is able to start. If I don't wait long enough, nothing happens when I try to start the gen.
-After a few seconds of the gen spooling up, the roof A/Cs come on and they run fine.
-Today is the first day that the refer did not come on, the microwave won't come on, the radio doesn't work. Basically, the only things that work under coach/gen power is the roof a/cs and the lights inside and out.

Yesterday, everything worked fine inside, no issues.

What could be happening?

Thanks in advance!

[Chuck v]

Bill,


If your generator is run on diesel fuel as mine was, it does require a "pre-heat" cycle to operate the glow plugs prior to the generator cranking. Actually, your diesel main engine for the coach has glow plugs as well and particularly in cold weather also needs a pre-heat cycle. There was a dash light indicator on my 2007 Tourmaster that would time out to show it was ready to crank the engine after first turning the ignition to on. Above about 70 degrees ambient, most diesel engines will start without the glow plug cycle...but the generator controls on my coach never allowed the cycle to be skipped even in warm weather.


Yes the generator must run a bit before the transfer switch allows electrical loads to be added to the generator -- this would include the roof air conditioners and all AC appliances/loads in the coach. If you were connected to shore power, this transfer would cause the AC loads to be switched FROM the shore power TO the generator. Since you are not on shore power, the AC available from the generator does go through this short delay to allow the generator to stabilize its running after startup.


Is your refrigerator an RV style (gas absorption cycle with either propane or electric power...either 12 volts DC or 110 volts AC) or a residential style full size one that ONLY runs on AC power? If your coach has a residential refrigerator and does not run on Propane when electrical power is not available, then you will be pretty much tethered to shore power for a live-aboard lifestyle. I did have a large Inverter in my coach powered by a separate set of 4 each 6 volt golf cart batteries that could run the fridge for several hours without either generator or shore power, and that was adequate for driving between sites. If you don't open the fridge unnecessarily (particularly the freezer door if it has two separate doors...) it will stay cold overnight without power, but not much longer.


I will observe that letting the batteries on your coach go 'flat' will have shortened their life - even if they have accepted a full recharge. It sounds like the chassis batteries are being charged by the engine alternator now as you are running it often, and while the generator runs the converter it should be charging the house batteries. If your interior lighting is like that on my coach, it is entirely run at 12 volts DC. Your ceiling lights should work even when the shore power is not connected and the generator is not running if the house batteries are not discharged. When you start the generator and you already have a ceiling light on, you may notice it brighten when the generator transfer switch comes on-line, as that is when the converter begins charging the house batteries and taking on the load of the house lighting.


In summary, the power distribution in a typical diesel pusher coach with generator, inverter, and converter is as follows:
Shore power AC --> main transfer switch (where generator power comes in if shore power is not present) --> inverter transfer switch (where DESIGNATED loads such as the residential refrigerator would be powered by the inverter if other upstream power sources are absent...) --> to AC loads in the motor home. Note that the Converter (which is powered by 110 volts AC and makes 12 volts DC to power the lighting and charge the house batteries...) Your couch may not have an INVERTER, but it surely has a CONVERTER as that function is needed in the smallest travel trailer through the grandest coach.


Hope this helps a bit, but feel free to ask additional questions.


Your observed loss of microwave function and refrigerator function could possibly be a sub-panel breaker issue. In my coach the Inverter powered the residential refrigerator, the microwave, the TV and a few other designated loads, and it had a separate breaker panel for that reason.



Chuck

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Bill,


If your generator is run on diesel fuel as mine was, it does require a "pre-heat" cycle to operate the glow plugs prior to the generator cranking. Actually, your diesel main engine for the coach has glow plugs as well and particularly in cold weather also needs a pre-heat cycle. There was a dash light indicator on my 2007 Tourmaster that would time out to show it was ready to crank the engine after first turning the ignition to on. Above about 70 degrees ambient, most diesel engines will start without the glow plug cycle...but the generator controls on my coach never allowed the cycle to be skipped even in warm weather.


Yes the generator must run a bit before the transfer switch allows electrical loads to be added to the generator -- this would include the roof air conditioners and all AC appliances/loads in the coach. If you were connected to shore power, this transfer would cause the AC loads to be switched FROM the shore power TO the generator. Since you are not on shore power, the AC available from the generator does go through this short delay to allow the generator to stabilize its running after startup.


Is your refrigerator an RV style (gas absorption cycle with either propane or electric power...either 12 volts DC or 110 volts AC) or a residential style full size one that ONLY runs on AC power? If your coach has a residential refrigerator and does not run on Propane when electrical power is not available, then you will be pretty much tethered to shore power for a live-aboard lifestyle. I did have a large Inverter in my coach powered by a separate set of 4 each 6 volt golf cart batteries that could run the fridge for several hours without either generator or shore power, and that was adequate for driving between sites. If you don't open the fridge unnecessarily (particularly the freezer door if it has two separate doors...) it will stay cold overnight without power, but not much longer.


I will observe that letting the batteries on your coach go 'flat' will have shortened their life - even if they have accepted a full recharge. It sounds like the chassis batteries are being charged by the engine alternator now as you are running it often, and while the generator runs the converter it should be charging the house batteries. If your interior lighting is like that on my coach, it is entirely run at 12 volts DC. Your ceiling lights should work even when the shore power is not connected and the generator is not running if the house batteries are not discharged. When you start the generator and you already have a ceiling light on, you may notice it brighten when the generator transfer switch comes on-line, as that is when the converter begins charging the house batteries and taking on the load of the house lighting.


In summary, the power distribution in a typical diesel pusher coach with generator, inverter, and converter is as follows:
Shore power AC --> main transfer switch (where generator power comes in if shore power is not present) --> inverter transfer switch (where DESIGNATED loads such as the residential refrigerator would be powered by the inverter if other upstream power sources are absent...) --> to AC loads in the motor home. Note that the Converter (which is powered by 110 volts AC and makes 12 volts DC to power the lighting and charge the house batteries...) Your couch may not have an INVERTER, but it surely has a CONVERTER as that function is needed in the smallest travel trailer through the grandest coach.


Hope this helps a bit, but feel free to ask additional questions.


Your observed loss of microwave function and refrigerator function could possibly be a sub-panel breaker issue. In my coach the Inverter powered the residential refrigerator, the microwave, the TV and a few other designated loads, and it had a separate breaker panel for that reason.



Chuck

Thanks Chuck!

All of that sounds reasonable. My only issue with what you said was that as of last night, I observed a cold fridge/freezer. Today not at all. Also, the panel in the back next to the sink behaved differently today than last night. The panel I speak of is the AC Input panel. I will post a photo of it. Last night it was lit up. Today it was not.

My coach is diesel. I do not have a glow plug light, but I am very familiar as I used to work on diesels and prefer driving them. I just put the key in wait about 15 sec before cranking the engine. I'll use the preheat function for the gen from now on. Good catch!

Again, everything you are saying sounds very reasonable but when I compare the operation of yesterday to today (in my driveway) nothing is the same. If my roof ACs work fine, I cannot understand why other things aren't, unless it is a breaker issue. Where are the breakers? Under the driver seat in the basement?

Thanks!

Bill

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

http:/

This was all lit up last night when I ran the Motorhome but not today. This is the only other thing different than last night when I ran it.

[Chuck v]

Bill,


You still have not verified if your refrigerator is a propane/electric model (2-way or 3-way) instead of an AC only residential model as used in the later Tour Master units. So I did a bit of searching in the archive Gulf Stream literature and find that the 8391 came as either a side entry or a front entry floor plan and has no slide out sections (see the attached PDF document.)


I now know from that brochure that your coach was only offered with a 2-way (or optionally 3-way) refrigerator. 2-way means that it would run on propane or 12 bolts DC, and 3-way means that it could run on propane, 12 volts DC or on 120 volts AC. In any event the refrigerator should get cold if it is burning propane and there is propane in your tank, unless it is forced to run on DC or AC via a selector switch on/in the refrigerator itself. How is that selector control presently set?


The AC breakers should be in a cabinet inside your coach and not in the basement if it is anything like mine. Maybe another member of this forum has a similar model and can give more specifics. I will continue to look for some pictures of similar coaches to help us in this discussion, but posting some images of your interior control panels (generator start control, battery and tank levels, etc.) would definitely help.


Chuck

[Chuck v]

Bill,


I was researching/typing when you posted the image of your Heart inverter controller so sorry for the crossed communications. That panel is the status of your INVERTER, which must have some batteries supplying power to it so it can make 110 volts AC when neither the shore power nor the generator are available. If the panel is no longer lit -- either the battery bank supplying it is discharged or the rocker switch is set to the off position.

[Chuck v]

The Heart control panel you pictured is the user interface for the inverter, which must be somewhere in a basement compartment of your coach. Look for a metal enclosure that is about a foot cube or thereabouts and has two HEAVY 12 volt battery cables entering it. An inverter pulls a very high number of amps when operating (hence the short operating time capacity on battery backup...) so this inverter unit will be very close to the batteries to keep the high current low voltage cables short. I still think you might find a third bank of batteries associated with this inverter, but if not it must run off the house batteries and would definitely explain what is draining your batteries. Please post a picture of your refrigerator control that switches it to propane, and turn the inverter control rocker to OFF to allow the batteries to come up to charge and stay there.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

The Heart control panel you pictured is the user interface for the inverter, which must be somewhere in a basement compartment of your coach. Look for a metal enclosure that is about a foot cube or thereabouts and has two HEAVY 12 volt battery cables entering it. An inverter pulls a very high number of amps when operating (hence the short operating time capacity on battery backup...) so this inverter unit will be very close to the batteries to keep the high current low voltage cables short. I still think you might find a third bank of batteries associated with this inverter, but if not it must run off the house batteries and would definitely explain what is draining your batteries. Please post a picture of your refrigerator control that switches it to propane, and turn the inverter control rocker to OFF to allow the batteries to come up to charge and stay there.

Thank you! Where would that inverter rocker switch be located?

I will take some more photos and post them.

Thanks!

[Chuck v]

The inverter rocker switch ins the on on the right side of the panel you pictured with the ON, OFF and LOW CHARGE labels next to it.


Also note that in your picture, the AC INPUT lamp (fourth from the top in the left hand column of lamps...) is not lit so it is not receiving AC power from the shore or the generator at the time of the photograph...

[Chuck v]

Bill,


I could not readily find a Heart manual for your exact inverter and control panel, but here is one from a slightly newer model. Note the later control panel also has both voltage monitoring for the battery bank as well as how much current is being pulled from the battery. These inverters can pull over 100 amps so they can drain a battery bank pronto if left on with a large wattage AC load such as refrigerator or microwave.


Chuck

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Some additional observations: my gen will not start unless I start the coach first. If I run the coach for a few minutes along with the gen then shut the gen off and then the coach wait 10 mins I can get the gen started again without the coach being started. After 2 hours sinners to begin the sequence over again by starting coach then then gen.

I think there is something wrong because I should be able to start that gen independently of the coach.

Also I have reviewed the manual of the fridge and it says nothing about propane. I’ll post pics here in a sec.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Pics of fridge and the inverter.

[Chuck v]

OK Bill,


Your fridge is not a 2-way then and ONLY runs on AC voltage (which you can confirm in the manual specifications page...) This means that the AC must be present, either from the shore power (primary source) or the generator (secondary source) or in emergencies from the inverter (limited duration third possible source of AC.)


I suspect that your house batteries are mostly depleted each time you start your generator and that is why the engine must be running for a period of time to bring the up so the generator will start. Try turning the inverter to OFF on the control panel and verify that the AC output power on light in the top middle of the panel is not lit. This should allow a charge to remain in your house batteries overnight so the generator can be started without first starting the coach motor.


I see from the last photo above you found the location of the Heart Inverter -- can you trace back the heavy cables to see which battery bank powers this inverter? Where in the coach is the inverter located? (If it is not near the house or chassis batteries, I suspect that there is another bank of batteries you have yet to find.) Note that the inverter can draw up to a continuous 200+ amps from the battery powering it, so it is definitely not the way you want to run the refrigerator for many hours, let alone days.


When the system is running on either the generator or the shore power, you can look at the inverter front indicators (not the control panel) to see roughly how much current is being placed back into the bank -- over 30 amps, 20 to 30, amps, or 10 to 20 amps depending on the LED color showing... You cannot directly read how much current is being taking out of the bank when the inverter is making 120 volts AC for the appliance loads when the generator or shore power is not present however. Most later model inverters do allow for this draw current to be metered.



Chuck

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Chuck, the inverter is directly across from the battery bank in the basement on he port side. The batts are starboard.

Again, really appreciate your info. I think I am closer to getting to the bottom of this issue.

Still confused as to why the roof AC will work, both of them and nothing else. I would think that the roof ACs would draw quite a bit of power.

[Restorium]

If my roof AC worked and my fridge and microwave quit I would think it was a breaker. I would first look in the main fusebox for tripped breakers. Then I would check all my ground fault resets on the plugs that have them. That's about it. It's always one or the other

[Chuck v]

Bill,


Pretty sure that the roof air conditioners are NOT on the inverter, but can be run from the generator (and shore power of course...) as this is how my 2007 TM was configured. I suspect that the generator power must pass through the inverter's internal secondary transfer switch to get to the microwave and the fridge, so that would limit their working until the house batteries were charged up enough for the Heart unit to at least have coherent control of the power path even it was not doing an inversion.



Because my coach had a 23 cubic foot refrigerator, it needed even more inverter power when normal 110 v AC was not available -- such as when driving. Therefore it had a large and separate battery bank and did not draw from tghe house or the chassis batteries. Your coach appears to have an apartment sized two door refrigerator of perhaps 10 cubic feet or so and perhaps consumes much less wattage than my full sized GE side by side unit that could draw more than 1250 Watts during a defrost cycle. What does your fridge manual state in terms of power consumption?


Chuck

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Chuck,

Nothing regarding power consumption. It’s awoefully inadequate manual which I’m finding is the case for all RV related manuals.

Here is what ot says: 10.1 cu ft, 115v 60Hz, not designed to be used with an inverted. I didn’t know I had the inverter on this entire time.

Now to find the breaker box.

Inverter panel next to stove: I switched it off. No LED lights available. For grins I switched it to low charge for a few seconds and observed the green led light and the red charge rate light. When I switched to on it just showed a red AC input light on.

Thanks again to everyone who replied. I’m learning quite a bit. When I bought this it was not on a whim. I spent 2 days with the owner using a 28 page checklist. I’m a Realtor so I did a home inspection and I was a Harrier and Hornet guy in the USMC so I was methodical and anal about things. However after a while thing got overwhelming and I was more interested in making sure all systems worked, didn’t get the chance to understand all systems. The difference was he had an RV hookup at his house as well as a dedicated water hookup. So everything was charged and was going to operate if it was a working component to begin with. I don’t have my stuff plugged in and I’m working toward that after I understand the electrical. The issue is when I plugged in the RV after I bought it not only did it trip my breaker in the house the GFCI started smoking. I suspect that’s because it was a 15 a GFCI and I was pulling 30 if not 50 a. Once I understand how the electrical works on the coach I can begin to lighten the load it’s pulling then slowly add back as necessary. I’m getting there, so thank you!

[Restorium]

Chuck,

Nothing regarding power consumption. It’s awoefully inadequate manual which I’m finding is the case for all RV related manuals.

Here is what ot says: 10.1 cu ft, 115v 60Hz, not designed to be used with an inverted. I didn’t know I had the inverter on this entire time.

Now to find the breaker box.

Inverter panel next to stove: I switched it off. No LED lights available. For grins I switched it to low charge for a few seconds and observed the green led light and the red charge rate light. When I switched to on it just showed a red AC input light on.

Thanks again to everyone who replied. I’m learning quite a bit. When I bought this it was not on a whim. I spent 2 days with the owner using a 28 page checklist. I’m a Realtor so I did a home inspection and I was a Harrier and Hornet guy in the USMC so I was methodical and anal about things. However after a while thing got overwhelming and I was more interested in making sure all systems worked, didn’t get the chance to understand all systems. The difference was he had an RV hookup at his house as well as a dedicated water hookup. So everything was charged and was going to operate if it was a working component to begin with. I don’t have my stuff plugged in and I’m working toward that after I understand the electrical. The issue is when I plugged in the RV after I bought it not only did it trip my breaker in the house the GFCI started smoking. I suspect that’s because it was a 15 a GFCI and I was pulling 30 if not 50 a. Once I understand how the electrical works on the coach I can begin to lighten the load it’s pulling then slowly add back as necessary. I’m getting there, so thank you!
When you plugged the coach in to shore power it shouldn't have been drawing more than 15 amps unless you had some major things running like the AC, microwave, or electric heater.
So that brings us to the question of why the breaker blew and smoked.
Two things I can think of are;
1.Somehow your plug wiring doesn't match the output of your home wiring.
Maybe you have it set up different than the previous owner? Wires crossed? Bad plug? Bad cord?
2. Something went bad between the time the previous owner had it connected to shore power and when you plugged it in.
Most things have breakers that would blow to protect you against fire.
So now we are back to the cord on the shore power or some other wiring.
I'm betting on the cord now. It's the usual suspect. And if that cord is shorting then everything is going haywire.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

When you plugged the coach in to shore power it shouldn't have been drawing more than 15 amps unless you had some major things running like the AC, microwave, or electric heater.
So that brings us to the question of why the breaker blew and smoked.
Two things I can think of are;
1.Somehow your plug wiring doesn't match the output of your home wiring.
Maybe you have it set up different than the previous owner? Wires crossed? Bad plug? Bad cord?
2. Something went bad between the time the previous owner had it connected to shore power and when you plugged it in.
Most things have breakers that would blow to protect you against fire.
So now we are back to the cord on the shore power or some other wiring.
I'm betting on the cord now. It's the usual suspect. And if that cord is shorting then everything is going haywire.

Ok, thanks! So, when I plugged it in back in April, the 3 A/Cs were running as was the fridge.

If the cord is bad, it literally went bad in 24 hrs. Because I drove the coach home, and 24 hrs later tried to plug it in. Only to blow the GFCI, trip the breaker and smoke.

[Restorium]

Ok, thanks! So, when I plugged it in back in April, the 3 A/Cs were running as was the fridge.

If the cord is bad, it literally went bad in 24 hrs. Because I drove the coach home, and 24 hrs later tried to plug it in. Only to blow the GFCI, trip the breaker and smoke.
Cords go bad intermittently. Wiggle the cord and it works. Wiggle the cord and it shorts.

Food for thought for you;

I can plug my coach into a 15 amp circuit at home no problem at all. Everything is fine until I start the AC and the microwave together. Maybe your two ACs would be a problem. Usually this stuff is off when you plug it in.
So turn it all off and plug it in again and see what happens. We need to rule out a shorting cord and that's how you do it. Until you can plug it in without your breaker tripping we are just chasing our tails. Fix that first. Then move forward.

[Chuck v]

Bill,


When you did your walk through of the coach at the prior owners place, you mentioned that it was plugged into an RV service (possibly 50 amp 230 volts...) and since then you never got the shore power to work at your shed using the 15 or 20 amp 115 volt outlet. Let's begin with the assumption that the shore power cord set for the coach is properly wired and in good condition, since it worked at the PO berth. What adapter(s) are you using for the 230 to 115 connection? Commercially available ones from Camping World and others are wired correctly to convert from 50 amp 230 to 30 amp 115, and then a commercially available adapter plug can transition from the 30 amp RV connector to a more common 115 volt outlet plug with U ground pin. If any of these adapters were not commercial gear and made by you or the PO, I would suspect that is the most likely issue causing cross wiring, outlet GFI smoking, breaker tripping, etc. Pictures of course will help...


Chuck

[Restorium]

Bill,


When you did your walk through of the coach at the prior owners place, you mentioned that it was plugged into an RV service (possibly 50 amp 230 volts...) and since then you never got the shore power to work at your shed using the 12 amp 115 volt outlet. Let's begin with the assumption that the shore power cord set for the coach is properly wired and in good condition, since it worked at the PO berth. What adapter(s) are you using for the 230 to 115 connection? Commercially available ones from Camping World and others are wired correctly to convert from 50 amp 230 to 30 amp 115, and then a commercially available adapter plug can transition from the 30 amp RV connector to a more common 115 volt outlet plug with U ground pin. If any of these adapters were not commercial gear and made by you or the PO, I would suspect that is the most likely issue causing cross wiring, outlet GFI smoking, breaker tripping, etc. Pictures of course will help...


Chuck
I concur on that. Makes the most sense. Simple answer.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

I know what you are gonna say, why is the RV chord taped? I don’t know!

[Restorium]

So that adapter is new? First time you used it?

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

So that adapter is new? First time you used it?

Not new. Don't know how old it is. I used it for the first time in April. Then smoke. I assume it was from the GFCI, but maybe it was from the adapter?

[Chuck v]

There must be some missing images here.



The four pin 230 volt plug with the tape is presumed to be on the end of the shore power cord from your coach. Maybe the second picture shows the coach end of the heavy shore power cord. Does this end disconnect from the RV or is the cord permanently attached? (In the case of my coach, the coach end is permanently attached and the cord is reeled up by a power retraction device.) Was the tape on the plug end present when the prior owner had it connected at his place? Perhaps the cord was modified to compensate for a mis-wired outlet at his shop...


The 115 volt plug adapter shown in the third and fourth images clearly adapts the NEMA style plug to a socket accepting the 30 amp "y" style connector of a dog bone adapter. Is the second picture the other end of this dog bone -- could be the case if the main shore power cord is fixed to the coach at the bay end...


From what we know at this point, I am pretty sure your issues are crossed wires and most likely in the taped area. If your shore power cord is removable (disconnects from the coach end) then just replace it with a known good one...yes it is expensive but cheaper than a fire.


Chuck

[Restorium]

I would take that tape off and see what's going on there.

Look at the other end where it connects to the coach. See if the cord is wired correctly.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

The second photo is the female end of the adapter.

The shore power chord is permanently fixed to the coach.

Good news though. I know on Sunday I charged the batts and all was well. However, I left the inverter on until you all told me to turn it off.

So today I charged the house batts. Now the microwave and fridge works. I’ll know in the next few days if my house batts got ruined when they were drained or if they are fine.

Question: where are my breakers? I know where my fuses are but I don’t know where the breakers are. There has to be breakers, right? I want to turn off things before trying to plug in the coach again.

Thank you again for all this great instruction. I feel like I understand the coach a lot more.

[Restorium]

The second photo is the female end of the adapter.

The shore power chord is permanently fixed to the coach.

Good news though. I know on Sunday I charged the batts and all was well. However, I left the inverter on until you all told me to turn it off.

So today I charged the house batts. Now the microwave and fridge works. I’ll know in the next few days if my house batts got ruined when they were drained or if they are fine.

Question: where are my breakers? I know where my fuses are but I don’t know where the breakers are. There has to be breakers, right? I want to turn off things before trying to plug in the coach again.

Thank you again for all this great instruction. I feel like I understand the coach a lot more.
Breakers, on my coach they are at the base of the bed in back. A door flips down.

On yours, I'll take a wild guess that they are in the basement compartment on the drivers side furthest forward.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Breakers, on my coach they are at the base of the bed in back. A door flips down.

On yours, I'll take a wild guess that they are in the basement compartment on the drivers side furthest forward.


I checked in that basement compartment and that's where my fuses are. I'll check the master to see if I missed something in there.

[Chuck v]

Bill,


All of my AC breakers in my 2007 Tour Master were side by side in two groups accessed behind plastic panels near the floor and just below the refrigerator -- one panel for those loads that are driven by the shore poser/generator, and a second panel for the designated loads that could be driven by the inverter as well. In later models of Tour Master coaches the breakers were in a cabinet that also had system monitoring and the inverter control panel... each of these locations also included fuses for DC items inside the living area like the lighting fixtures. These breaker panels are about foot wide and several inches tall, so they should be easy to find in your coach where ever they are located.



Chuck

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Bill,


All of my AC breakers in my 2007 Tour Master were side by side in two groups accessed behind plastic panels near the floor and just below the refrigerator -- one panel for those loads that are driven by the shore poser/generator, and a second panel for the designated loads that could be driven by the inverter as well. In later models of Tour Master coaches the breakers were in a cabinet that also had system monitoring and the inverter control panel... each of these locations also included fuses for DC items inside the living area like the lighting fixtures. These breaker panels are about foot wide and several inches tall, so they should be easy to find in your coach where ever they are located.



Chuck


I found the breakers. They are located at the foot of the bed near the floor in the master.

Next issue to tackle is why the radio doesn't work. Is that critical? No, but it would be nice to have as I go down the road. I move my RV to it's permanent base next weekend, the 17th. Then, I'll get an electric/water hookup installed. After Labor Day weekend, I will move from humid SC to cool TN near the Smokeys.

[Chuck v]

Bill,


Are your breakers in two panels? If so the one that has the refrigerator breaker probably is the panel that comes through the inverter. Other breakers in that panel most likely will also have 115 volt AC power from the inverter when the generator and shore power are not available (for the limited time that the inverter supply batteries hold out...)


As far as the radio goes, my coach had a dash switch that allowed it to play with the ignition off, so perhaps that switch has changes position recently -- see this thread:
http://www.gsowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4326&highlight=radio+switch


Chuck

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Bill,


Are your breakers in two panels? If so the one that has the refrigerator breaker probably is the panel that comes through the inverter. Other breakers in that panel most likely will also have 115 volt AC power from the inverter when the generator and shore power are not available (for the limited time that the inverter supply batteries hold out...)


As far as the radio goes, my coach had a dash switch that allowed it to play with the ignition off, so perhaps that switch has changes position recently -- see this thread:
http://www.gsowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4326&highlight=radio+switch


Chuck

Yes, there are 2 panels!

There is not a switch with a music icon on it. I have a 3 way toggle switch that controls the radio/tv/off. I will start with a fuse tomorrow. If that doesn't work, then I'll replace the radio. If that doesn't work, then I know its the 3 way toggle switch.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

So, I observed another thing tonight. I didn't really fix anything I just put a bandaid over it. At 430 today batts were at 14.1 volts, everything worked as it should. We went to VBS tonight and came home at 8. I tried to start the gen and nothing. Started the coach then the gen fired up. Tested the house batts and they were at 10.1 volts. Fridge and microwave didn't work again. After running the gen for a minute or two, fridge and mircrowave worked fine.

I think there are 2 things at play here. One, the house batts aren't deep cycle. The previous owner changed them about a year ago and he didn't change them with deep cycle batts. Two, when they got severely drained I may have irreparably damaged them. The inverter was off when I stepped out this evening. It is still off now.

Is it normal for the fridge to drain the batts that quickly, especially with them being starting batts and not deep cycle? Or is that just wishful thinking and what probably happened is that they are not holding a charge? Is there electrolyte in them that I should be checking? I don't see where there caps?

Thanks again!

[Chuck v]

Bill,


Your house batteries are most likely quite damaged from repeated discharge to completely dead state. They should at least get an equalizing charge before loading them heavily...or at least days of float charging on shore power. If these batteries are sealed units without the caps needed to top off the electrolyte then you have no way to verify the level of the liquid or use a hygrometer to ascertain level of charge. If there is room in your slide out battery tray, you should consider using four each 6 volt golf cart batteries in series/parallel configuration in place of the present two 12 volt automotive batteries.


Can you show a wide shot of the shore power adapter (dog bone) that has the 4 pin 240 volt socket on one end and the 3 pin 120 volt 30 amp style plug on the other -- please take off the small adapter plug that is on this end that provides the U-ground 15 amp plug that mates into a normal house receptacle. I ask because I want to verify that this is a factory molded power adapter and does not have individual wires that a prior owner could have incorrectly wired. There must be some reason that the coach's long shore power cable has been cut off, reconnected and then taped over as your one picture shows...


Chuck

[Restorium]

Refrigerators use a lot of battery life. They are hogs. You really don't want to run it much off batteries. Use shore power whenever possible otherwise you are just using up your batteries. Batteries have a lifespan determined by how many times you discharge them and recharge them.

I would quit monkeying around with everything until you fix the shore power issue.
That taped on end to the cord is an issue. If someone were to replace an end they normally would buy a new one and not splice on an old one. It's a cobble job at best.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Refrigerators use a lot of battery life. They are hogs. You really don't want to run it much off batteries. Use shore power whenever possible otherwise you are just using up your batteries. Batteries have a lifespan determined by how many times you discharge them and recharge them.

I would quit monkeying around with everything until you fix the shore power issue.
That taped on end to the cord is an issue. If someone were to replace an end they normally would buy a new one and not splice on an old one. It's a cobble job at best.

Ok, I think that is good advice.

Can anyone recommend a new shore power chord? I looked on camping world and amazon but just want to get thoughts from others.

Thank you!

[Restorium]

Ok, I think that is good advice.

Can anyone recommend a new shore power chord? I looked on camping world and amazon but just want to get thoughts from others.

Thank you!
Take the tape off and see what went on there. It's part of getting this right. If it isn't cross wired then there is another problem.

This is the cord you want;


https://www.amazon.com/Conntek-14302-Generator-Power-30-Foot/dp/B00268VSJ6/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=rv+50+amp+cord&qid=1565356651&s=gateway&sr=8-8

This is the adapter you need to plug it into you 15 amp plug;
https://www.amazon.com/Proline-Power-Female-Adapter-Removal/dp/B01N75TBWX/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=rv+50+amp+cord+adapter&qid=1565356881&s=gateway&sr=8-7#customerReviews

[Chuck v]

I agree with Restorium and suggest this order of steps:




remove tape and seeif the wires are crossed under there -- if so replace the long cord with a new one.
if no wires crossed, try using a factory adapter cord as suggested to get from the 50 amp connector to teh 115 volt house plug. I really wanted to see the back side and cord used inn the adapter you have now because if it is a field wired connector that is the most likely place for a crossed wiring error and may have prompted the hacking of the main cord.
clearly from your descriptions in this thread you seem to be a bit overwhelmed by these electrical issues and you might be well served to have a professional sort this out for you.

Let us know how you proceed with this, and post lots of pictures as that might help us see something you are overlooking...


Chuck

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Some photos of the adapter that was used to plug in the coach.

Was thinking of getting a new one and trying that.

I haven’t had the chance to get to the tape on the power chord but I will. I seriously doubt it was crossed unless the previous owners receptacle was also crossed. That’s why I think I want to start with the adapter. Much easier to replace the adapter than the power chord.

Thanks again!

[Restorium]

Some photos of the adapter that was used to plug in the coach.

Was thinking of getting a new one and trying that.

I haven’t had the chance to get to the tape on the power chord but I will. I seriously doubt it was crossed unless the previous owners receptacle was also crossed. That’s why I think I want to start with the adapter. Much easier to replace the adapter than the power chord.

Thanks again!

Yup. That adapter is fried.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Ok thanks! Had a feeling. It smelled fried. So I’ll start there and get the one you recommend.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Update: I got the new adapter from
amazon. Didn’t realize they delivered on Sundays.

Plugged it in to the GFCi on my shed and no smoke. Proper to plugging it in I turned every thing off. Then when I added things like the roof ACs it tripped the GFCi and the breaker inside the house.

This can’t be normal. I should be able to rub my coach from shore power. Here is a photo of what the inverter panel in the galley is showing: I don’t think the first lighted LED on the indicator should be red. I think it should show green showing it is charging. Yet I have a charging rate as indicated by the bottom LED.

The fridge will work right now as will the microwave: not sure if they will trip the breaker or not, as I have the fridge turned off but the LED light showing that it is off is lit. In the past if it is not lit it shows that it will not come on until the batts are at a certain level. Same with the microwave.

Any thoughts? This is my successful plugin since the previous owner had it plugged in.

[Restorium]

Update: I got the new adapter from
amazon. Didn’t realize they delivered on Sundays.

Plugged it in to the GFCi on my shed and no smoke. Proper to plugging it in I turned every thing off. Then when I added things like the roof ACs it tripped the GFCi and the breaker inside the house.

This can’t be normal. I should be able to rub my coach from shore power. Here is a photo of what the inverter panel in the galley is showing: I don’t think the first lighted LED on the indicator should be red. I think it should show green showing it is charging. Yet I have a charging rate as indicated by the bottom LED.

The fridge will work right now as will the microwave: not sure if they will trip the breaker or not, as I have the fridge turned off but the LED light showing that it is off is lit. In the past if it is not lit it shows that it will not come on until the batts are at a certain level. Same with the microwave.

Any thoughts? This is my successful plugin since the previous owner had it plugged in.
You can run your coach off shore power. It would have to be a proper sized cord and a 50 AMP circuit.
Right now I have my coach plugged into shore power at my home. It's plugged in with a 100 foot regular extension cord to a 15 amp service. If I turned on my roof AC the cord would get hot and I would blow a breaker on my house panel. I can run everything else. If I wanted AC I would have to use a bigger cord and a bigger breaker. Like what I use at the parks.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Ok so everything is normal then. Because I’m using the big fat RV chord with the new adapter plugged into a 15A GFCI. I just can’t tell if it’s chsrging or not. Because the panel shows differently when I run the generator.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

The next issue is that I just came out to the RV and tried to start the generator while hooked up to shore power. It won’t start. It’s doing that thing that it does when the batts are low. Should I be able to start the gen while on shore power?

[Chuck v]

Bill,


I agree with Restorium's post above -- you presently have your coach plugged into a single household utility outlet...most likely rated at 15 amps maximum. This should be sufficient to run small loads like the TV and the microwave, but not all the air conditioners at the same time and maybe not even a single air conditioner by itself, since air conditioners are large loads of 12 to 15 amps EACH. I found this handy listing of 110 volt loads typical of RV uses that may help you. Remember, your converter that charges your house batteries and provides the 12 volts that runs your lighting is an additional load to those listed below, and these converters usually draw 6 to 7.5 amps from the shore power:


For instance, a 13,500 BTU air conditioner can draw around 14.5 amps when set in cooling mode and 16 amps when set in heating mode. As for the other appliances, they might be able to draw the following amperage:


Microwave - 12.8 amps
Toaster – 10 amps
6-gallon electric water heater – 12.5 amps
Electric coffee pot – 10 amps
Crockpot – 1.5 amp
Hair dryer – 10 amps
Heating pad – 0.5 amp
Television – 2 amps
Electric frying pan – 10 amps
Ceramic space heater – 7.5 – 12.5 amps
Clothes iron – 9.2 amps

Note that the figure above indicates the number of amps that a single appliance can draw. If you have more than one units of a particular appliance, then it can also draw more amps.

As to the photo of your inverter control panel in your post above, it is passing 110 volts to the downstream loads like your refrigerator. The charge rate indicator (bottom LED on left...) shows green so the charging rate is just 10 to 20 amps into the battery, and the battery status indicator shows red meaning low battery voltage -- none of these conditions is mutually exclusive and all make sense for a coach that has been starving for shore power for some time. Remember, you have been consistently discharging the house batteries repeatedly such that the generator can't be started until the main engine is running for a time.



I suggest you leave the air conditioners off (breakers off) and let the coach charge on the limited shore power your 110 volt 15 amp shed outlet is providing. You should find that the battery status LED will show green as the voltage comes up to normal unless the house batteries are permanently damaged by the recent events.


I doubt that you cn stgart your generator when the battery status indicator is red indicating low voltage. Maybe your generator starts off the chassis batteries, but I doubt that. Can you start your main engine?



Keep us posted on what you find, and good luck with your next berthing location which hopefully will have a proper 50 amp 230 volt RV connection for your rig.


Chuck

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Here is how the coach is plugged into my shed. It appears my shore power chord is fine I checked the inverter and it is showing AC input as is the panel in the galley.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Thanks Chuck!

So for my next location it’s going to be interesting. I have a farm, no buildings, no house, just 18 acres of pasture and hay fields which is being harvested for the hay right now. There is a power pole on the property so the idea is to tell the electrician to rig me up a 50 am power station. But I know I need to be careful because my coach is 110. I read up on it and it’s confusing because you can’t get 50 amps from 110. Ohms Law just won’t support. So how does the power get stepped down from 230 to 110 without frying the coach?

[Chuck v]

Bill,


Not sure what the typo "chord is die" is supposed to actually say -- but your present connection is valid, just of limited capacity...namely 15 amps.


Chuck

[Chuck v]

Bill,


Your coach is definitely NOT limited to a 110 volt service, even though you have no single loads that require 230 volts unless you have a clothes dryer that is much different than the one I had in my coach. Your coach is wired much like a normal residence, in that there are two phases of power entering the service at the main panel, and each phase is individually capable of 110 to 120 volts. The 4 pin 50 amp connector on your shore power cord indicates that your coach is wired in this way.


When you put in your power pole on your land, just be sure to have the electrician install a mating RV style 4 conductor 50 amp 230 volt outlet and you will be fine.


Chuck

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Sorry typo my fingers are too fat for this phone. It is suppose to say fine. I said that because there was some question as to the legitimacy of that chord due to it being taped.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Thanks Chuck. So you meant 320 or did you mean 230?

And I have a washer dryer combo.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

This was in my coach. I think this is what you were trying to say and I was too but just didn’t say it correctly. It’s the second column that discusses 50 amps.

[Chuck v]

Yes 320 -- I corrected it above...


Your washer combo runs on 110 volts only. I had separate units in my coach (a stacked set of a washer and a dryer...each a separate appliance) and my dryer also was only 110 volts, although I have heard of some very large coaches that have had 230 volt dryers.

[Chuck v]

Thanks for posting that document -- it confirms the discussion of my post #52. While your coach does not have any 230 volt loads/appliances...it does plug into a 50 amp 230 volt outlet at an RV full hook up pedestal at an RV park. Any licensed electrician should be ble to provide a service outlet compatible with your RV when provisioning a service post t your property using a 14-50R NEMA receptacle.

[Chuck v]

Bill,


Here is a good choice for an outlet box for your property. It has a breaker for the 50 amp service which allows you to plug in the coach and then apply power by flipping up the breaker (avoids any arcing on the connector when mating the plug to the socket...) and also includes a duplex 115 volt outlet with GFI breaker to run other items outside the coach. Essential items would include a heating strip for your fresh water hose when outside temps are freezing (or a heated hose like I used...) and tools you might want to use around the outside like a leaf blower. The box sells for about $144 at Home Depot.


Chuck

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Thanks! That’s awesome. Good tip about the hose never would’ve thought!

[Restorium]

Thanks Chuck!

So for my next location it’s going to be interesting. I have a farm, no buildings, no house, just 18 acres of pasture and hay fields which is being harvested for the hay right now. There is a power pole on the property so the idea is to tell the electrician to rig me up a 50 am power station. But I know I need to be careful because my coach is 110. I read up on it and it’s confusing because you can’t get 50 amps from 110. Ohms Law just won’t support. So how does the power get stepped down from 230 to 110 without frying the coach?
Your plug with the 4 prongs allows you to have two legs at 110. It's not 230 on either.
Every 230 breaker circuit is going to be able to be split in half like that and be two 110 circuits. Or one 230 if you use the two 110's together.

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Your plug with the 4 prongs allows you to have two legs at 110. It's not 230 on either.
Every 230 breaker circuit is going to be able to be split in half like that and be two 110 circuits. Or one 230 if you use the two 110's together.

Ok, thank you!

[UAHaerospace]

...just to complete this '50amp RV service' electrical discussion:

50amp RV electrical service is 240v service, just like at your home
...it includes:
- a Double-Pole 50amp Main Breaker set(two 50amp breakers with a shared trip handle)
- TWO hot wires(Black, Red), and Neutral wire(White), and a Ground(green or bare)
- a 4-pronged OUTLET


While many may misinterpret 50amp RV service as simply 'only 20amps more than 30amp service', the two types of service are actually much different...

While 30amp RV service is a different 3-pronged plug, and is only 120v power, the
50amp RV service is 240v service at the Shore Power outlet.
When you PLUG IN your 50amp shore power Cord, from your RV, the same 240v power enters your ATS(Auto Transfer Switch), and then into your MAIN PANEL, still as 240v power, indicated by your own Main Panel's 50amp DOUBLE-POLE main breaker set, just exactly like the one at the shore power Pedestal.

When the 240v power enters your Main Breakers, though, it is then 'SPLIT' into two separate and independent Power Buss Bars, which the individual Circuit Breakers attach to in the panel. While you may not can 'see' these power Buss bars, they provide 120v power to the two 'SIDES' of power in your RV - essentially creating two separate 120v lines of service, or 100amps of usable 120v power.

With this type of 'split' service, a 50amp RV actually has 70 AMPS MORE of 120v power than the aforementioned 30amp RV service.


Yes, there are a very, very few higher-end Motorhomes, and even 5th Wheels, that will provide a main panel that uses the actual incoming 240v service, such as for a residential 240v clothes dryer. While these main panels are more like your home's main panel, and can allow for the inclusion and use of individual double-pole circuit breakers to access this 240v power, the vast majority of RVs with 50amp service don't have appliances that require this - their main panels actually don't even have this capability.


Could we simple 'rename' 50amp RV service as "100amp RV service" in order to more simplify the equation? Possibly, and some campgrounds, rv parks, and resorts actually DO use the term '100amp service', but the main reason that the vast majority don't is really do to the fact that the electrical industry doesn't either.
The electrical industry looks at the number on the Main Breaker, and uses that as the 'vernacular', or term, for the 'amount' of power you have. Since the main breaker is a double-pole 50amp type, it is called then '50amp Service', regardless whether it is 240v service, or 120v service.

It is what it is, whether we might be confused by it or not.

But, it's also a reason that many campers who have always had 30amp RVs might think that those of us with 50amp RVs are only getting '20amps more' of power.... but, alas, it's not that simple.

[UAHaerospace]

here's a 'diagram' of a typical 50amp RV service(240v) into a typical RV...
where it simply uses both 'sides' of the power, which is 120v for each...
(which is also why you actually have 100amps of 120v to make use of!)

{if you have an ATS(auto transfer switch, which most newer RVs do), it simply sits between the shore cord and the main panel - nothing with the wiring shown here is any different, otherwise}

and yes, there are main panels that are designed differently, with a 50amp main breaker set on the far left, or even some panels are vertical, more like yours at home, but in the end, the same wiring scheme remains.
My coach even has a similar, but different, panel, with the Main breakers on the far left, and an integrated 'sub-panel' set of breaker, with it's own power buss bar, on the far right - which is simply a more 'custom' main panel design that allows the manufacturer to more easily install the 'whole house' inverter's output within the main panel, without a totally separate sub-panel.

[Chuck v]

UAHaerospace,


Thank you for your informative posts above which really add to the discussion here. It was useful to point out that the 50 amp RV service connection is actually TWO 50 amp legs (phases) of 120 volt supply yielding a total of 100 amps of availability. This point is really driven home if you simply look at the typical park service panel as shown below.



The 30 amp outlet has a single 30 amp breaker
The 50 amp outlet has TWO 50 amp breakers coupled together
The white GFI AC dual outlet has a single 20 amp breaker

[Capt_Bill_USMC]

Thank you to all who responded.

[Sundancer268]

On my 1995 Scenic Cruiser the power comes into t ATS which selects either generator power or shore power with the generator as the primary source if both are available. Power then goes to the main power panel through a 50 amp dual pole circuit breaker. This is the main disconnect for the panel. In this panel there are three circuit breakers (CB), two 20 amp CBs feeding the two A/C units and a 30 amp feeding my Inverter, originally a Heart unit like yours. The Inverter then feeds the second power panel which powers all the 120 volt loads in my coach. My original inverter fried and I lost all my 120 volt circuits and the battery charger, to continue our trip, I had to remove the Inverter from the system by connecting the Inverter power in and out wires together. This at least gave me power to run some electric heaters until I got home and could replace the Inverter. I have since carried a battery charger along with me so I am fully prepared for any future charger/Inverter problems.

[seangsowner]

Hi Chuck. I have a 1993 8391 tour master. I Can't seem to find an owners manual anywhere. Gulfstream only had a 1998 version. Right now, I'm looking for a release button of some kind to be able to release the generator tray to be able to get at the gen. I believe it should be in the stairwell area as per some other comments on another forum. I do have a spot in that cluster which is missing a switch or something. And there's a blue and a red wire sticking out.

[Chuck v]

Sean,


My 2007 Tour Master did not have the generator on a slide, so I have no personal knowledge of how yours may latch and release. I did check the GS archives to verify that your 1993 generator DOES have such a slide, but the brochure there does not show any details on the latch.


I expect the latch is mechanical and not electrically actuated, but again that is just my thought on the matter. It certainly could be a remote electrically actuated release if the mechanism is way back in there...have you crawled under the front of your coach and inspected the generator slide rails for where the latch might be?


Good luck -- sorry I could not be of any specific help. What does GS say when you contact them?


Chuck