Cummins starter solenoid is stuck on.

[Delta]

2001 Friedship, 300 HP Cummins, Spartan chassis. The starter solenoid stuck on when I started the engine. Lots of nasty noise.Managed to pull battery cables to stop it. Key would not, Battery disconnect switch no too. Now the hot wire to the solenoid is always powered. A mechanic and I have been stumped for over a month now.Have been told there is a secondary solenoid or a relay somewhere. Can't find either. Have the hot wire rigged with a momentary start switch and motor runs fine. Key will turn it off. This happened when it appeared to have a dead battery ( it was not) and used the dual battery rocker to start it.
Fired right up. Any ideas. About ready to look for a high cliff.

[Sundancer268]

If you have a Spartan Chassis, I would contact them and ask for the wiring diagrams for your coach. On my Scenic cruiser, the second solenoid is located inside the frame rail on the passenger side a little bit in front of the batteries for the chassis. It is hard to see and it supplies power to the main starting relay/solenoid so the wires on the terminals are not battery size cables. Mine is going bad but in the opposite way, it will click, just wont pass power until I click it several times then the engine will roll over and start. It is on my list of things to change next summer. It is well hidden and awkward to get at so I have not been in any hurry to crawl under there in the past.

[Delta]

Thanks. We have talked many times to Spartan and they are great but admit not for sure where it is but should be where yours is. Gulfstream is clueless. We have checked the frame there and haven't found it. Will check again with your info in mind. Do you have a part number or description for the solenoid? Or is it a normal size and design? Roughly how big? Sort term we have bypassed the whole mess with a push switch wired direct battery to starter solenoid. Fit nicely on dashboard in lighter socket right next to the key. We still have an always hot wire taped up. Don't like that.

[Sundancer268]

It has been a couple of years since I was under there to look at it, but it is a standard Ford type of Starter Relay in style with two large terminals on the side and I am not sure if there is one or two small terminals on the front. If two, one would be for ground and not a "I" terminal as used on the Fords to bypass the Ballast resistor. If a Single terminal is used, the ground would be through the mounting bolts. Either one would work as long as the power was applied to the "S" terminal and the ground if two wire were left off for a single wire relay. If it is a two wire relay, you just have to make sure one of the terminals is not labeled "I". I hope I have not added to the confusion. Mine is buried behind some obstructions, I can't remember if hoses or wiring harnesses, but it is not in the open and easily seen. You are absolutely right about Gulf Stream being useless, every thing I have contacted them for they had no information. I get the feeling they just want us older coach owners to just go away and not bother them.

[Delta]

Thanks. really appreciate your help. We will get back under there this weekend. I am in Northern OH and weather stinks now. We started on this problem almost 2 months ago when it was nice out (but not under). Am thinking of replacing the push switch with a solenoid if we can't find the solenoid. Ran a pair of 10 ga. wires to the dash from the starter and battery. Mounted right beside the key so maybe we can figure out which wire from the key is powering the old hot wire to the MIA solenoid. Only as a last resort.

[Sundancer268]

I hopefully have attached the Circuit Number Identification Sheet Spartan sent me when I first purchased my Scenic Cruiser. If not, it is a PDF File and I will try and get it to you some other way. The nice thing about it is if you have the number on the wire, example, #16, you look at the sheet and find it is listed as the Fuel Gauge Sender. Looking at the back of your Ignition Switch, you just Identify the wire numbers and it will tell you what each wire does.

[Delta]

Wow. Thanks. You are a great help. I got the list and will get time to go through it later. Not sure I understand, are the terminals/wires on the key switch numbered? FYI I am not a mechanic but I have a friend that has worked with me through this whole mess and has many years as a truck/diesel mechanic and he is puzzled. If the secondary solenoid is hidden where you suggest, life is good. Again thanks for your help.

[Sundancer268]

If you peal back the wiring harness split loom, Spartan printed a number on every wire every so many inches so you can go to any wiring harness and peal back the covering and see the numbers. Gulf Stream did that also, using a three letter combination, they just won't tell you what the letters mean. Some are easy to guess, others I have no idea what they mean. Examples I have figured out are shown on the attached PDF File, there are what I have been able to discover and document in NanoCad for my records. Something I poke into when we are on the road and I get bored in camp, I have been dong this for the last 10 years. I did start out with AutoCad when I was working full time and I had access to the program. So far I have measured drawings of my coach floor plan and most of the wiring in the basements figured out, now I just need to dig into the wiring buried behind the switches and ceiling lights next year.
I guess the attachment didn't make it.

[Sundancer268]

If you peal back the wiring harness split loom, Spartan printed a number on every wire every so many inches so you can go to any wiring harness and peal back the covering and see the numbers. Gulf Stream did that also, using a three letter combination, they just won't tell you what the letters mean. Some are easy to guess, others I have no idea what they mean. Examples I have figured out are shown on the attached PDF File, there are what I have been able to discover and document in NanoCad for my records. Something I poke into when we are on the road and I get bored in camp, I have been dong this for the last 10 years. I did start out with AutoCad when I was working full time and I had access to the program. So far I have measured drawings of my coach floor plan and most of the wiring in the basements figured out, now I just need to dig into the wiring buried behind the switches and ceiling lights next year.
I guess the attachment didn't make it.
I will try this again.

[Sundancer268]

So are you making any progress or is this crazy weather still putting things on hold?

[Delta]

Good morning and thanks for asking. A big NO. We carefully checked where you suggested last Sunday and found nothing. Trying to follow the hot wire backward we have disconnected from the starter solenoid is all we can think of now. It will be a mess since it disappears in looms. Getting too old to do this on my back. May have to find a shop. May wait till spring. The wind is supposed to exceed 60 mp here today so maybe I will be lucky and it will go with Dorothy to Kansas.
One more clue. What ever is going on unless I put the store switch on it will run the batteries down pretty much over night.
This is a 2001 Friendship. Spartan built the chassis in 1999 according to their records. I assume it is same vintage as yours. Last numbers of VIN are XC032649.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Rick

[Sundancer268]

One thing to note, I have the Spartan EC-2000 series chassis, I don't knle what the Freedom came on so that might have a bearing on what I pointed out on my coach. I understand the weather, so far this morning I have had over .86" of rain and there is a partial closure of the Mackinaw bridge, only cars and empty pick-ups without tool boxes or caps are allowed over the bridge due to the winds. Sorry I can't be of any more help.

[Delta]

I will follow up with the solution when we find it
Cheers!

[Delta]

Hi,
The missing link was found by sense of touch. It is actually a regular cubic, about 1" on sides, relay. Not a Ford-type solenoid. Well hidden under a plastic weather shield. Tucked under wire loom bundles about where you suggested in the frame rail. A little more to the rear. Have one coming on Monday to see if that does it. Happy Holidays and thanks again for your input.

[Sundancer268]

Glad you found it, I always thought the Ford Style relay was over kill for what it was ask to do. Maybe as your coach is a newer model, they found a different way of doing it with a lighter duty part though if the contacts welded together it might have been a poor choice on Spartans part. I will still have to fix mine, hopefully next summer. Marry Christmas and have a good winter season.

[CoachStreamr]

One thing to note, I have the Spartan EC-2000 series chassis, I don't knle what the Freedom came on so that might have a bearing on what I pointed out on my coach. I understand the weather, so far this morning I have had over .86" of rain and there is a partial closure of the Mackinaw bridge, only cars and empty pick-ups without tool boxes or caps are allowed over the bridge due to the winds. Sorry I can't be of any more help.

thanks for posting your documents and info, saved for future use. I have the same chassis

.

[Sundancer268]

Have you checked with Spartan for the wiring diagrams? When I gave them my VIN, they sent me a PDF File of the Chassis wiring and it has been a great help. It is not perfect as Gulf Stream made some modifications when they added the Battery Control Center to the system.

[CoachStreamr]

I better call them with my VIN, I do have the BCC in the Driver's side front bay.

They have been very helpful in the past providing info/part numbers for our specific model.

I am still going to save your documents including your last one.

I also now believe ours is a 1995 model vs 1996 (and edited my Forum Signature). The Nevada Title from the 2nd owner listed it as a 1996. Washington State has it as 1995 once we registered. The Gulf Stream Plate inside the Coach shows the Manufactured Date as 09/12/1995. I thought it could possible be a 1996 but more investigation leads me towards 1995. Those late model year dates can be tricky. There are some features from the 1996 brochure and the original furnace installed was the SF-35 (according to the GS sticker inside) and not the SF-42 as listed in both the 1995 and 1996 brochures for this specific model, that was also throwing me off.

The Chassis was manufactured earlier in 1995.

Your GS 8344WFD doesn't have the BCC?

.

[Sundancer268]

I have been tracing the BCC for the last 10 years and have had help from Intelatec, obviously the unit is obsolete but still functioning. The last drawing is for my VIN range and might even include your coach, I think you said it was a 1996 model. I have also included some other components I have had issues over the years, The Speed-O-Meter was self inflicted as I had the dash apart and lost the picture I had taken of the wiring so I had to contact VDO to get that information. I literately have dozens of equipment diagrams, though several are generic and you can get into trouble if you don't know what you are looking for in them. I know I have and it has been fun learning from my mistakes.

[CoachStreamr]

wow, great! Maybe you should create a new Thread for Scenic Cruiser BCC and Spartan Chassis Circuit Number Identification info with all the files there.. would make it easier for others in the future to find. I'm sure this will be very helpful to others in the future.

Saving all docs in your last post too.

.

[Sundancer268]

I suppose I could move them to OneDrive and make them public, Just don't know how to do that on the forum

[CoachStreamr]

Here is my Coach's Battery Control Center (BCC).

The label on that circuit board's one component is labeled:

INTELLITEC
00-00287-101
25094
BCC D-W/D


I don't know what the specific Intellitech BCC board model is though it looks similiar to a model 500. Ours is the Diesel version, likes yours.


.

[Sundancer268]

Almost the same, where you have 25094, I have 15394. That might just be the serial number ans as my coach is older, it stand to reason I would have a lower number. I tried to attach an Excel Spread sheet that has all the information I have collected on my coach, but the site will not let me. It is part of a larger spread sheet I keep all my Maintenance, Trip information, Fuel useage etc. I add to it as I find out new information.

[CoachStreamr]

I'll PM you here, perhaps you can email me your spreadsheet.

Do you know the BCC model number of yours and the BCC circuit board part #?

I was looking at this site and comparing the different circuit boards:

https://www.mmrvelectronics.com/battery-control-centers

Apparently, if these older boards need repair and you call Intelletec, they will refer you to Chris Bayus at M&M RV Electronics (website linked above).

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=121382.0

I don't have issues but would like the BCC circuit board part # and BCC Model number so I can be more prepared if something does happen.

Perhaps that last number is a serial number.. Interesting...

.

[Sundancer268]

I don't have that info right now on the board. Spread Sheet sent. If you are familiar with AutoCAD, I have several drawings I have made of the BCC and other systems in my coach, might be adaptable for your coach. At least it would give you a starting point to do your own drawings. Since retiring, I have switched to NanoCAD free to continue my drawings, not as easy for me as I was using AutoCAD LT for 20 years at work and the NanoCAD menues are not the same and I have to hunt for the commands I want.

[CoachStreamr]

I'd love to look at those AutoCAD drawings and add them to my document library. Sent to the same email address. They may come in handy.

Thank you so much :p

I found an entire BCC with that same top number for sale but the board is different and there is another Solenoid so it probably was for another Manufacturer's Coach.

.

[Sundancer268]

I modified the Board on my BCC so I could install a B.I.R.D. Diesel 2 for the battery charging function. It was not working properly on the BCC so I disabled that function and everything now works properly. I also designed and installed a system to silence the Jacks down and Spartan Alarm Horn for the long pump-up time on the Air Tanks. It works good except once silenced it will not reset unless you shut off the ignition. When I first got my coach, the original owner had unplugged the horn on the Spartan Alarm System. It is annoying, but I am glad I hooked it back up. On the way home, we threw the Serpentine Belt and if I had not got the low coolant alarm we would have destroyed the engine. I had not noticed we were overheating as the gauge was behind the steering wheel and I did not see the temp climbing. The coach was new to us at the time and it was a learning curve. We over flowed the Black Tank in the Bathroom flushing the Fresh Water System. That is when I found out the Bathroom Sink drains to the Black Tank instead of the Gray like all my previous RVs. There are many other modifications I have made over the last 10 years to better suit out wants and needs. Now that I have retired, I can spend more time on the coach. Next major Mod will be the WET Bay, I need to add some permanent mount Water Filters and re-arrange the Sewer Dumps if possible, I think GS did a terrible job on the Sewer Hose Connections and I want to see if there are any alternatives, maybe not but I will not know unless I try.

[CoachStreamr]

I modified the Board on my BCC so I could install a B.I.R.D. Diesel 2 for the battery charging function. It was not working properly on the BCC so I disabled that function and everything now works properly.

Are you saying (before your BIRD mod) that:
1) Alternator (Cummins on) would charge both the Chassis and Coach/House Battery banks.
2) While on Shore Power (Cummins off), both banks could be charged?

What was the behavior with your Generator on (Cummins off) for both Battery banks?

When our Coach's Cummins is running, the Alternator only charges the Chassis Batteries.
When on Shore Power, only the Coach/House Batteries are charged.

I thought our Coach's charging behavior was normal for these GS Scenic Cruisers.

BTW, been going through your onedrive pics and docs.

.

[Sundancer268]

No that is not normal, at the very least the Engine should be charging both Coach and Chassis batteries and IF I am remembering right the Inverter either on Generator or Shore Power is suppose to charge the same after the Coach batteries are up to sufficient power. I was reading that in one of the manuals Intellect sent me. That is why I wanted to fix the BCC. I found it was cheaper at the time to add the B.I.R.D. Diesel 2 instead of chasing around for an obsolete part with no guarantees it would work. I did not know of any repair service available and did not really think of looking into that. I am happy with the way the system is working now. I did have to replace the combiner relay on the Passenger rear rail because it would not pass any current. That is the same relay controlled by the switch on the dash used to jumper the house and chassis batteries together. You could hear it clicking when my wife pushed the switch, but the contacts were not passing current. Expensive relay as it has to be a continuous duty relay vise a momentary duty like a starter relay. Any way the general operation is that the battery normally charged by it's primary source, Alternator or Inverter has to reach a certain voltage for x amount of time at which point the BCC/B.I.R.D controller will activate the combiner relay to connect both banks together to be charged. Some cheaper systems will only work when the alternator is charging and the better systems work in both directions. I think though not 100% certain that the BCC was suppose to be the better system. Easy enough to find out, just run the engine while disconnected from shore power and measure the voltage on both battery banks, they should both be above 13 volts if they are receiving a charge from the alternator. More than likely the voltage will be at least 14 plus on the chassis batteries and slightly less on the house batteries due to voltage drop on the wires between the batteries. Then do the same thing with the coach re-plugged back into shore power and check both banks. If it is Bi-Directional the chassis battery will be slightly less than the house batteries. The alternator voltage will very due to outside temperature with a higher voltage the colder it gets.

[CoachStreamr]

No that is not normal, at the very least the Engine should be charging both Coach and Chassis batteries

Is this how it should work it should work on our Scenic Cruisers (his is a generation newer than both our Scenic Cruisers)?

http://www.gsowners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19990&postcount=6
The engine alternator charges the chassis batteries first, once they are charged then the bi-directional relay will start charging the house batteries.

Now to jump start the engine with the house batteries just press the rocking switch down and hold it for a few seconds and it will crank right up.

Now while I am hooked up to shore power only the house batteries get charged up with the inverter/charger on my Scenic Cruiser.

On Shore Power, our Chassis batteries do not get charged, only the Coach/House batteries (I've check the voltage on both banks several times). The Converter/Charger only connects to Coach/House batteries though that bank is connected towards the BCC (and/or a isolator Relay) and perhaps the system should the Chassis bank on Shore Power. I just don't know if it was designed to do so. EDIT: On further thought, I think the Converter/Charges (under bed) wires go towards the BCC (front of Coach, Driver's side) and not directly to the Coach/House bank at the rear Drivers bay. I may have to take the time to trace those wires.

With Engine running, the Chassis batteries get charged but not the Coach/House batteries. However, I may have checked the voltage at the Coach/House batteries (with engine running) when the Chassis batteries were still low and the BCC didn't switch over yet - assuming the above quote is how the system is supposed to work.

Our Coach doesn't have an inverter, just an upgraded converter/charger.

I looked through your onedrive. Did you document your B.I.R.D. repair/upgrade? I'd be interested to know the details of your upgrade/repair.


I did have to replace the combiner relay on the Passenger rear rail because it would not pass any current. That is the same relay controlled by the switch on the dash used to jumper the house and chassis batteries together. You could hear it clicking when my wife pushed the switch, but the contacts were not passing current. Expensive relay as it has to be a continuous duty relay vise a momentary duty like a starter relay.

I hear the click when I press that dash button but I have never had the voltage measured while pressing that button. I will have to figure out which bank to measure - actually I need to find that specific relay location first and just test at the relay.

.

[Sundancer268]

I don't believe I did any documentation of the B.I.R.D. install. If I remember right, it was just a simple wiring job. I am not sure what I did to the BCC circuit board to disable the charging function. I might have just removed a wire from one of the plugs, I would have to go back and look at the schematics I made of the circuit board and look at the Coach the next warm spell we get. The relay on my coach is in the same general area as the starting relay you were looking for back on the passenger side frame rail. I had the wife cycle that switch while I crawled around under there. When I located the relay, I felt it while the switch was cycling and felt the relay clicking in and out. I did have to replace it as I broke one of the terminals cleaning the corrosion off the cable terminals. I think it was on the way out due to the corrosion as it didn't take to much pressure on the wrench to snap off that stud.
http://www.gsowners.com/forums/showp...90&postcount=6 That explanation sounds about right on the basic operation. Some people install an auxiliary battery charge device, one example is the Trickle-Start https://www.lslproducts.net/TLSPage.html another is from Xantrex http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/auxiliary-battery-charger.aspx. There was a discussion on charging the Chassis battery on the Winnebago forum http://www.winnieowners.com/forums/f259/trickle-start-is-the-perfect-solution-65562.html. I think I went with the B.I.R.D. because it used the existing combiner relay allowing the full 100 amps from my Inverter charger to go where it was needed. It might have been overkill, but that is part of my nature. My coach came with an Inverter charger located in the shore power cable compartment. When that unit burnt up internally, I installed a Magnum MSW 2000 watt unit under the bed by the transfer switch. I probably could have had the old unit fixed though I found the Magnum used on line for a good price and it has worked flawlessly for the last eight plus years. I now have four Life Line AGM Batteries also located under the bed. The charge profile could be easily set in the Magnum. I am not sure I could have done that with the old inverter or if a Converter could be set to the proper charge profile.