Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
Gulf Stream Owners RV Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-01-2020, 01:25 PM   #1
UAHaerospace
Senior Member
 
UAHaerospace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 142
Default 'crazy' Electrical, wow! : /

WOW! .... uh, Hi...

just wanted to give everyone a READ on something that happened just this morning... Crazy ELECTRICAL issue ; /

my son is at college, off campus, on his own private lot, with his 2014 Gulfstream camper. We set him up there this year, to settle in to studies at UAH for Aerospace Engineering. While we were there beside him in our motorhome for a while, he's there on his own now.
He has a 30amp shore cord to a 30amp outlet 'box', and to the power pole on the property, where it is attached to the 30amp breaker in the Main Panel(an outside 'combo' Meter/200amp Main Panel). His 30amp connection is the only draw from the panel.

This morning he texted me that he was hearing a pop and crackle sound from his bedside outlet. He even facetimed me so i could hear it. Hmmmm, not good, so I told him to look under the fridge and trip OFF the 30amp Main Breaker. He did. It kept making sounds and popping and cracking, and even just then, started to 'smoke'...
I QUICKLY told him that it was not 'normal' for any 120v electrical outlet to continue having an electrical issue when the Main Breaker to the camper has been tripped OFF, but never-the-less to RUN outside and pull his shore power cord!

He did. No more cracking, popping, or smoking, though now there was residual melting and black soot around the lower outlet. There was nothing plugged into the outlet at the time, and the only thing plugged in to it normally was a small desk fan, not even run or used during the overnight hours. This 'sounds' awakened him this morning, and he unplugged the fan thinking that it was the culprit, and then texted me when it kept 'making noises'.

SO.... what to do now, right? Now that we have 'no power' to the camper, and no 'way' for the outlet to still have ANY type of electrical power, I asked him to carefully, still, pull off the outlet COVER, and then pull OUT the outlet itself.
I imagined that this was one of the 'stab outlet' type where the factory doesn't have to cut back wire covers on each wire, but simply 'stabs' or pushing them down FIRMLY into a 'teeth' type contact point.
Yes, that's exactly what type of outlet it was, and the lower NEUTRAL white wire was plainly BLACK with soot and burn marks. Now, this was ALSO a daisy-chained outlet, meaning that there were INCOMING wires, from the power source, and OUTGOING wires to go to the next outlet, which was his computer, monitors, modem, and where he sits ALL DAY, while 'working' : ) (I think!)

So, we decided, remotely, to do some tests:
First, undo ALL of the 6 wires(2 black, 2 white, 2 bare ground) and keep them separated. Trip OFF all the breakers. Go out and plug IN the shore cord. Come back in and flip ON the 30amp Main Breaker. Good. Now flip ON the 15amp circuit breaker and 'see' if anything is still cracking/popping/smoking from those wires. No, nothing. Good.

Second, test: plug something into each outlet near the bed - the right side outlet still 'worked'. The wall 'TV outlet' worked. The computer/desk area did NOT work. Now we know that the 'daisy-chained' outlet is 'upstream' of the computer outlet, and we need to try to handle getting power back to this 'primary' outlet.

Third, flip OFF all the breakers again. Go out and UNPLUG the shore power again. Come back in and twist together each set of wires(ground first, then Neutral, then black) making good contact for each set, but keeping them 'separate' from each other, for the time being. Also, remove the CAT to the restroom while you do this : )

Fourth, go back out and plug IN the shore power. Come back in and see if anything is amiss with the 'new' wiring. Nothing. Good. No voltmeter available, by the way. Flip ON the main breaker. Still nothing, Good. Flip ON the 15amp circuit breaker. Nothing, very good, although just then his MONITORS powered up and starting working again, nice! Now we know we have completed the 'circuit' and there is power restored everywhere, except the aforementioned 'bad outlet', which was removed.

Congrats, but now: FIFTH...
Turn OFF the circuit breaker. Run to the hardware store for TAN wire nuts, and electrical tape(and get a few 'tools' while you're at it!).
Return, twist the TAN wire nuts well onto the ends of each 'pair' of wires. Tug to make sure they are well attached. Add electrical tape around each 'pair', from 1" below the wire nut, to and over the wire nut. Add tape now around the three pairs, making a 'single' bundle. Carefully push this bundle in the wall cavity where they came from. Go back and turn ON the circuit breaker. Make sure the computer area is working. 'IF' you have room, put the outlet back in the same hole it came from, add the cover plate, and you are now 'good to go', with only a 'dead' outlet to speak of. Oh well. It works, none-the-less.


Here's my take on this high-pressure situation, especially when you 19 year old, with no electrical experience, and 200 miles away from 'home', has a sudden 'fire hazard' issue next to where they are sleeping:

I believe there are two things at work here: A not-so-great outlet electrical 'connection' with it's wires, and a possible 'ground leak' thru the Shore Power/Outside Main Panel at the power pole. Without knowing for sure, I believe that even though this outlet had some suspect wiring from the factory, the 'ground leakage', which would not have required the camper's main breaker to be engaged, created a situation where it's 'leakage'(a small amperage) was somehow interfering with the Neutral wire, or otherwise they were so close together, or maybe even touching with the outlet, and the 'power' was then able to 'cross over' within the outlet, making it 'live', or seemingly so, even with the camper's Main Breaker(and circuit breaker, both) turned OFF!
Neutrals have a way of creating bad days, when they are either loose and not always making a good connection, or when any 'arcing' is created across it's wire when things are as tight as they should be.

Maybe I'm close, maybe not, but either way, the situation is somewhat resolved, and he's able to go back to his normal functions, while now being cognizant of this occurring in another outlet if the 'ground leakage' condition continues. He had a lot of rain recently, which I'm sure may only add to the equation. Until I can get over and diagnose the outside power pole Main Panel and it's connections, especially the 'ground' in the ground, I won't really know.


Happy Days are here again! : ) (I'd love to upload a photo, or video, of some of this, but we were so in the weeds for a while we didn't think of that right at the moment!)
__________________
...2014 Ameri lite 259BH...
the Turners...
two Campers, two Electric Cars
UAHaerospace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2020, 02:17 PM   #2
jamesham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 125
Default

Excellent step by step diagnosis of the problem. The mention of the cracking sounds told me what the problem is because we have also experienced it. We went a little overboard and replaced ALL of the outlets inside and outside on our motorhome with GFCI receptacles. That way, none of the outlets are "daisy chained" together and limited to a single point of failure. All of the GFCI receptacles have clamps built into the unit so the wire can be wrapped around the screw and then clamped down by a copper strip. Problem solved. Menards had the GFCI units we used on sale for $9 each, so about double the price of a premium regular outlet, but much better than the factory 49 cent "stab" outlets.

By the way, hope your son's RV has battery powered ceiling smoke alarms in bedroom end and other end. our front one is close to the toaster, so it has a push "hush" button on it. The other safety devices like propane detector, carbon monoxide detector, usually are mounted low and operate off 12 volts from the house battery. We are safety nuts, but we also added a Weather Radio with alarm that runs off 120 volts AC cord so it is always on.

[QUOTE=UAHaerospace;31275]WOW! .... uh, Hi...
just wanted to give everyone a READ on something that happened just this morning... Crazy ELECTRICAL issue ; /
jamesham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2020, 02:39 PM   #3
UAHaerospace
Senior Member
 
UAHaerospace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 142
Default

yes, thanks - no issues since the repair - all is good : )
UAHaerospace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2020, 03:24 PM   #4
UAHaerospace
Senior Member
 
UAHaerospace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 142
Default

now, as for my OTHERS son's camper, a newly used '07 Forest River Rockwood, we've tackled a few gremlins there, too:

the elec/gas water heater worked just fine the first week, on Elec since he's always plugged into power. Then, it suddenly stopped. Only cold water.
After pulling out some of the workings of the water heater, like the propane tube and investigating what could be the issue, I felt like it was either the TEMP CONTROL/HIGH LIMIT Switch, or the simply 'ON/OFF' switch, mounted in a hard-to-reach and easy-to-miss bottom left corner.
I had 120v power at the breaker, but nothing to anything in the water heater, TEMP Switch, or the Element itself, so I went to remove the On/Off switch by pulling it out with some needle-nose pliers when 'BAMMM!' and sparks flew!
I knew I had 120v power now! And, it looks like the simple answer was that the simple on/off switch, $1 at any reputable store, was shot. Well, rather than replace it, I decided to run a test and simply butt-connected the two wires together. We HAD hot water.

and, since we don't use the outside 'On/Off' switch, anyway, I just left it that way.
: )


The NEXT issue was a little more complicated, and involved:
The RV fridge and CCI lpGas detector started going off every now and then, for seemingly no reason. My son hardly uses anything '12v', mainly sitting behind his desk with his Desktop computer, two Monitors, and a Internet modem....all 120v devices. He might run the air conditioner every now and then.

When these annoyances started happening, I remember that when we first bought the used camper last month, that whenever I didn't have it plugged in, NOTHING worked, even with a battery at the hitch. At first, I chalked it up to a old bad battery, no biggie, since we're always plugged in permanently.
But, as these 12v items started 'faulting' with more and more regularity, I mustered the need to 'fix' the issue.
I went to the battery. I measured the output at somewhere in the 11 range. O.k. maybe the battery is low, and any slight 'draw' on it from time to time might cause it to drop in voltage so much that the Fridge and lp Detector's electronics don't like that - so maybe a new battery is in the future.

But, hold on just one minute! If the battery is low, SHOULDN'T the Converter be charging it - after all, we're plugged into 120v power, right?
I then starting thinking about it. I'd never heard the Converter, right below the fridge, and in the same open kitchen/living area where my son is almost 24/7, or it's FAN in operation. Most RV owners, my father included, many times don't like the placement of the Converter in a living room area since that 'noise' is annoying! I hadn't heard a single PEEP from this one. Is something suspect here?

So, I decided to test my theory, to see if it might be the battery, or it might be the converter, so I'll REMOVE the battery from the equation, all together, and since the WFCO Converter manufacturers says that the battery is 'optional', and only needed IF you are traveling, and IF you have a slide room that needs it, etc., otherwise it will perform it's function regardless, I'll test this 'workaround' option.

I removed the wiring cables from the battery and let them hang. Now, we had NO BATTERY in the equation, but were plugged into 120v power.
The Converter continued powering the 12v appliances and devices, and other than one similar 'fault' fairly early on, it went on just fine like this for over a WEEK. I thought I was just the best thing since sliced bread, and that I had 'found' the culprit(the battery!), and I was 'smarter' than most!

NOPE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sorry. : /

Then, just as suddenly as it seems the problem had been 'solved' a week before, the same issues started happening again, and even WORSE this time. Now all the lights and fans flickered and struggled and eventually actually just failed. ALL 12v power was lost.

So, we had a decision to make. Find and order an apparently failed WFCO 8955 Converter. I did, but the 'soonest' deliver would be this coming Wednesday, 4 days away. What to do about the FRIDGE and it's lack of power? Yes, we still certainly had 120v power, and so did the fridge, but it's Control Panel was dead, with no 12v to power it, and we had no way for the system to also use PROPANE to light it, either. A Condundrum.

But, I then had a thought. Post this on some of these forums, and quickly found a response that put me on to a possible 'work a round', if not a real 'long term' fix:

Simply remove the converter, and reattach a battery, just like camping off-grid. O.k., that's an idea, so I though of taking that very battery, the one I had 'thought' was the culprit, and hooking it BACK up to see what would happen, with the Converter removed.
Well, you know what? Everything now works again : )

So, in the end, what I found is that the Converter was failing, not necessarily the battery, even though the battery was probably not getting the charge it needed to 'hold up' to the eventual needs that we had for it.
Now it is being charged by a car 12v charger, and holding up just fine, and keeping all 12v appliances and devices and lights and fans working as they should.

when the new converter replacement arrives, I'll then reinstall it, and see if the battery Charging is handled, like it should be, from the converter, itself.


[[on another forum I even asked this question that came to me along the way: if the former owner had hooked up this battery backwards, and since we didn't know it since when we visited the camper it was plugged in, could the 'backward' wiring have internally damaged the Converter so that it could certainly not charge the battery, and would eventually itself, 'fail'?]] It's possible. We'll see how the 'new' converter changes things.
__________________
...2014 Ameri lite 259BH...
the Turners...
two Campers, two Electric Cars
UAHaerospace is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×