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Old 04-04-2023, 10:55 AM   #1
Kristin N
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Default Lights dim then went out

Hi All, we have a 2007 Gulf Steam Tour Master. We have an issue this morning where the lights started to dim in the coach as someone was taking a shower. Then the lights will no longer come on. The refrigerator and power outlets are still working. We aren't where we can plug into a power source, so we are looking for ideas. I am trying to troubleshoot the issue while my husband is working. Most post I read around this topic state the refrigerator is out as well, and ours is not, so I am looking for help on where to start looking. Thank you for your help.
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Old 04-04-2023, 11:23 AM   #2
Chuck v
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The interior lights in the Tour Master line of large diesel pusher coaches are all run on the 12 volt "house" or "coach" batteries ( as opposed to the bank that is the chassis batteries for starting the engine, or the front mounted inverter battery bank...)


The residential refrigerator, the utility outlets, the microwave, etc. are 110 volt AC appliances that should run from the shore power, or the generator or inverter in the absence of shore power... Having them working is not any relation to your interior lighting.


The observation that the lights dimmed and then went out would indicate the absence of voltage on the coach/house circuits from the coach battery bank. It could be the batteries are dead, or there may be a failure in the supply and distribution via a fuse or even the disconnect relay.


Below is the typical wiring on a coach of this type:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Tourmaster DC wiring from GulfStream -- AE2241-03.pdf (149.9 KB, 13 views)
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Old 04-09-2023, 10:49 AM   #3
RY469
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I agree with Chuck, and will add that it looks like (from his .pdf) you have two sets of house batteries. One for main power (lights) and the other for your inverter. Since you say your 120VAC stuff is working, and you are not connected to shore power, I will deduce your inverter and inverter batteries are OK. The second set of batteries for your coach are most likely dead (dimming lights are the last gasp from depleted batteries). The schematic shows an isolation relay between your two house battery banks. If that relay was engaged, you would have power to your lights from both battery banks (but unfortunately, the schematic shows it also connects your chassis batteries, you don't want that). I'm assuming then that it is NOT engaged (maybe it should be). Even if you fired up your generator, the coach batteries would not charge unless this relay is engaged (per the .pdf). That's where I would start, either the "Coach IRD" relay is bad, or is not being properly "told" to engage. Either way, I personally see no advantage to having two sets of house batteries . . . I'd tie them together if it was my coach. Maybe someone has insight to the advantage?
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Old 04-09-2023, 11:43 AM   #4
Chuck v
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Rich,


Thanks for your inputs. There are some nuances, however. These coaches have both an INVERTER and a CONVERTER, the first changes 12 volts to AC whereas the latter changes shore power AC into 12 volts DC.



There are reasons to NOT have the inverter bank and the house/coach batteries tied together at all times -- as they are charged from separate charging systems when connected to shore power. The house batteries (the ones that supply the 12 volt lighting circuits in the coach...) are charged by the 12 volt converter. This converter both charges these batteries and directly supplies the lights when on shore power. The converter for this size coach, which is typically 60 to 80 amps peak for a 2007 Gulfstream coach, would be capable of properly charging flooded lead acid or AGM style cells. Later converters might be select-able to also charge lithium cells...


The bank of inverter batteries (shown in the drawing as four each 6 volt true deep cycle golf cart batteries) is located on a Tour Master under the windshield close to the diesel generator and the INVERTER found in the bay under the driver's window. This inverter has charge intelligence for the high amperage hour fast discharge characteristics of the cart battery bank, along with the float processes needed to maintain charge when not in direct use by the inverter for converting DC to AC. This bank also serves to crank/start the diesel generator...


You can do a lot of reading in the technical literature about why you should never try to charge/maintain lead acid batteries in parallel if they are not the same age, same model and same technology (the house batteries are 12 volt 'marine style' mixed discharge characteristic, but the cart batteries are true electric vehicle heavy amp load style units...)



It is OK for the vehicle engine and alternator to charge all three banks at the same time for a limited duration -- hence the connections of the coach IRD and Main IRD in concert. The IRD controller has time delays and other voltage sensing provisions to make this a safe process.


Bottom line -- it is NOT RECOMMENDED to connect the inverter bank permanently to the house bank.
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Old 04-09-2023, 12:10 PM   #5
RY469
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Understand your point, I would not directly connect batteries of different types either. They only perform as well as the weakest one. I still might consider tying them together with a B.I.R.D. (Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay) or something.

The interesting thing in this particular coach is the house batteries are being charged by the converter, which relies on 120VAC from either shore power, the generator OR the inverter (and inverter batteries) apparently. So in "Kristen N's" case, the inverter appears to be working, but not providing power to the converter, or "Kristen N" maybe has a bad converter (or fuse or breaker for the converter).
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Old 04-09-2023, 12:24 PM   #6
Chuck v
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Rich,



The INVERTER does not charge the house/coach batteries at any time (and therefore never powers the 12 volt lighting directly) The only loads on the inverter are those in the secondary AC breaker panel (includes the TV, microwave and a few convenience outlets in the galley area) but NOT the converter. Also note that the inverter has an internal transfer switch that passes shore power to this secondary breaker panel when shore power or generator power is present, but changes over to inverter-produced AC when no other source is available.



The IRD functionality shown is actually a 'bird' per your terminology, as it is definitely bi-directional. This function is only activated when the vehicle's alternator is putting out a stable charging voltage (hence the delays, etc...) It can also VERY TEMPORARILY make the cross connect using the momentary emergency start push button on the dash to get the engine started if the chassis batteries are allow to go dead.


Hope this helps with the understanding of these systems...


Chuck
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Old 04-09-2023, 01:03 PM   #7
RY469
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I assume you meant to write "inverter" when mentioning the transfer switch (instead of converter).

Either way, not a great design in my opinion. But hey, as long as it keeps the lights on . . .
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Old 04-09-2023, 02:20 PM   #8
Chuck v
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Yes, thanks -- I'll edit it above...


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Old 04-09-2023, 07:39 PM   #9
Laserhealall
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I have a 39 ft diesel Sun Voyager. all 4 of my batteries are linked together in the front of the coach under the radiators.
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