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Old 06-23-2007, 10:52 PM   #1
Coolbreeze
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Default Bad Day I found De-lam plus have a big short in the trailer!

Think I have delamination. It is a bubble right above the top, forward corner of the slide. About 4 inches long and you can push it it. I didn't notice it a few months ago when I put a downspot extension on it but it sure is there now.

It was a bad day. I had the electric heater element replaced by the dealer. Drove the trailer 60 miles back home and it keeps blowing the GFCI on the house. I didn't check what size breaker on the house but I suppose it is 15 AMPS. It blew with nothing on in the trailer.Then I said hell with it I'll use the Generator. It has run the A/C before. Blows the GFCI on that too. Even with the Microwave or with the water heater seperately. What a mess. So it is back to the dealer now for a short in the trailer and de-lam.

When I went to the dealer to pick the trailer up the battery was dead. He plugged the trailer in so I could use the landing gear. I thought that might have been a mistake and I think he smoked the converter by doing it. We shall see. Obviously the converter was running but it still was knocking off the GFCI even after I charged the battery.Sometimes 2 and 2 doesn't add up to 4 but I know every electrical piece in that trailer was fine before I dropped it off to them. When I looked at why I was blowing the GFCI I noticed that the dealer left every breaker on and the electric water heater on as well. What a mees. I asked him if he turns the vacuum cleaner on before he plugs it in to the wall and his answer was yes! THIS RV INDUSTRY HAS TO IMPROVE.
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Old 06-25-2007, 05:10 PM   #2
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My guess is that your dead short is probably in the water heater (element). When our inverter blew we had a local electrician come out to look at it. He diagnosed the problem, we ordered a refurbished inverter, he installed it. His charge was $65.00 per hour for 3.5 hours and I paid $800 for an inverter that sells for $1200 at Camping World. My El-Cheapo extended warranty paid about $450. We did not have to deal with an RV dealer and feel we came out ahead....and we didn't have to disconnect and take it down to a dealer for an undetermined amount of time and check into a motel. Plus, I watched everything and can take care of it myself if it every happens again.
Good luck!
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:33 AM   #3
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by8s,

After taking some time to cool down I bet you are correct. They replaced the water heater element again but they don't have any GFCI in the shop so they are trying to find a GFCI protected Generator.

Mike C
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Old 06-29-2007, 10:13 AM   #4
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well it is not the water heater or at least the heater element. The dealer says they can't find the problem. Acutally it is that they won't find the problem. Good thing the trailer is only 6 months old and it is under warranty! So I have a trailer that I can't plug into any GFCI protected circuit or it will blow. What a joke but I'm not laughing!
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Old 06-29-2007, 10:36 AM   #5
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Were you able to plug into a GFCI before the dealer replaced the HW element?

What I would do if I was troubleshooting the circuit:

1) Turn off ALL breakers in the trailer including the main.
2) Plug in the trailer cord to the GFCI, if the GFCI doesn't trip then..
3) Turn on main trailer circuit breaker, if okay then...
4) Turn on each individual breaker one at a time until the GFCI trips,

When the GFCI trips, then you have isolated that one circuit that is the cause.

Good luck, Ron
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Old 06-29-2007, 04:23 PM   #6
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Perfect procedure Ron,,, perfect.

When the culprit circuit is located, you will have to measure for an electrical path to ground. A GFCI trips because the current flowing in the return white neutral lead does not match the current flowing in the black power lead. The only alternative path for that current to have traveled is to green ground.

Not to unduly alarm you, but this is a potentially dangerous condition as well (which is the reason for GFCI). Your unit frame is isolated from from earth ground by rubber tires. If the frame, door & step handles, compartment handles are touched while standing on the earth outside, you could complete a better path to ground than the one through the cord to the power pedastal.

You, or service department MUST find out what is going on and correct it. It is not safe.

While you are at the house, do you have the option of plugging into a non-GFCI source? You could do that with all RV circuits off. YOU stay inside while someone else turns your house breaker on. Follow Ron's procedure of operating everything, one at a time to determine if the house breaker trips. That will show you if you have a "short", or if you have the very dangerous "leakage" path to ground. If the NON-GFCI breaker does not trip, then have your assistant turn off the breaker while you exit your unit.

The phone call to your dealer should be to remind him of the liability he risks if he doesn't correct the situation or finds someone understands the problem & can fix it.

BTW, you are under no personal danger running your generator because the generator ground (& RV frame) is not tied to earth outside. No current will flow through your body if you touch both.
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Old 07-01-2007, 08:06 AM   #7
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Bob,

Great additional troubleshooting information you have provided. I like the procedure to find out if one has a "Short" or a "leakage" to ground.

I will add it to my reference library.

Thanks for the compliment, Guess I didn't do too bad for an Old mechanical engineer that has been shorted.

Ron
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Old 07-01-2007, 10:46 AM   #8
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Now lets see,,, for us old duffers, would the problem be:
1) Shorts,
2) Leakage, or
3) Shorts & leakage.. one affected by the other?

~an inquiring mind
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:47 PM   #9
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I'm trying my best to follow this. No electricians in our house...is the GFCI the reset button on the outlet? And if there isn't one on the outlet does a short default to the circuit breaker on the house electrical panel? I'm posing these questions apart from the RV. If I can understand this I can better relate to the RV.
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:25 PM   #10
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No problem............ a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) has a "test" and a "reset" button on the unit. The slightest difference of current in the black hot & the white neutral will trip the breaker. Where did the missing amps go? ...to green ground

If the Non-GFCI in your house sees a current (amps) greater than its rating, it will trip. The Non-GFCI breaker will not have a "test" nor "reset" button; just the main switch lever with the amp rating marked on the end.

A "short" just allows too much current to flow to neutral or to ground, exceeding the maximum rating. This would be due to a device failure, wiring failure, or just too many devices connected to the circuit.

Leakage is usually a failure of the insulation of some device that allows current to flow to ground. It is usually not much current (though it could be a lot). The danger comes when it is not a lot, so you don't know anything is wrong. That's when the unique situation of an RV isolated from the power-source's (transformer/pedastal) ground (earth) by rubber tires, comes into play. It's not guaranteed deadly, but it's also not guaranteed safe. How good are you at Russian Roulette?

To make sure I answered your question, a GFCI will have a "test" button on it, as well as the "reset" button. This is true in every case I'm aware of.

Also, don't play with firecrackers in a couple days!
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Old 07-01-2007, 08:16 PM   #11
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Bob, so far so good. I'm learning a lot here. The GFCI explanation was helpful. Now onto leakage. Years ago I had an electric frying pan and when in use I'd get a "shock" through the counter. This sounds like a device insulation problem. Am I correct? And does the same apply in an RV? So, for example, if a light fixture develops an insulation problem (cut wire) the flowing current could travel through the coach structure. A shock could occur. Is this correct? Charlie
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:15 PM   #12
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I read in another forum a while back about a guy who was getting a shock everytime he touched his wheels!
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:21 PM   #13
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Charlie & mfa,

You are right on now. I have not done it yet, but I keep promising myself that I will make up a lead out of some flexible, reasonable size wire. Maybe an automotive jumper cable, though it doesn't have to be that large. Connect one end to a frame connection within the electrical cord cabinet. The other will be connected to the pedestal metal before any power cords are pluged in. There may even be a ground rod driven at the pedestal. Better yet, if you intend to stay here a while, bring your own ground rod, hammer it into the earth a foot or 2 if you can, & clip onto that. There is no danger to yourself doing this as long as the power lead has not yet been plugged in.

When you plug in your coach/rv to the power source, there is no way the rv can be at a higher voltage than earth. ie: MFA, you can't get a shock when touching your wheels or frame while you stand on the dirt.

Now Charlie, the electric fry pan is the same idea, but a different set of conditions. When the portable device (fry pan) develops the insulation leakage you describe, and you touch it and ANY ground in your coach, such as a metal counter or stove top, unfortunately you will get a very hazardous shock.

In my opinion, the electrical codes have a very difficult job of defining a truly safe condition when it comes to appliances in kitchen areas where there is so much metal around. This is where GFCI outlets in the kitchen, bathroom & even laundry rooms are true lifesavers. The same is true in your RV... A GFCI outlet that the frypan plugged into would have prevented the shock.

In the case of the wheel shock, I'm not sure if the 50 amp & 30 amp breakers at shore power are ever GFCI... In that case though, there was most likely a problem with the shore power wiring or the RV cord.

I apologize if I'm now making this way too complex... Suffice it to say, if you are getting a shock at all, it is too dangerous to ignore. I take chances like all of us,,, but make sure you never allow a path across your chest when tinkering. When I'm plugging a device into an outlet, I never touch any other metal. I wear rubber souled shoes (sneakers) while I'm setting up/tearing down. If I'm in doubt, I'll do a test-touch with the tip of my finger - never grab an electrical appliance till you've tapped it with finger or back of your hand.

Oh Charlie, yes/no on your light fixture question... your statement is correct as you worded it. Generally, a cut wire will cause a short, and a circuit breaker will trip. If you touch the wire where it's been cut, and you are touching any other grounded metal, you are in deep dodo. If you're not leaning on that grounded metal cabinet, then you'll sense something, but won't get hurt.
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:55 PM   #14
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So gents I read all of these and agree with the findings. The trailer didn't do this before but now it does so there is obviously something wrong. I also agree with the trouble shooting techniques. The dealer offered an explanation but I'm not buying it especially since I have Electrical Engineering degrees. They said Gulfstream told them that the buses on the power supplies are 2 close. Maybe but that still doesn't make any sense because we know electricity is like water. Once it finds a path it tries to make that path bigger. In other words if there were a path from the + bar to the - bar it would continue to consume more amps until it melted, caught a fire or something else.

I'm still struggling with this and I will indeed have to figure it out on my own.
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Old 07-03-2007, 01:06 PM   #15
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Charlie,

I guess I went way out into left field, & never really addressed your problem. Sorry - I talk too much in person too.

Have you performed GStream40's 4-step procedure? Which circuit breaker was the culprit?
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:56 PM   #16
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Bob, Actually, there is no problem on my part. I'm just trying to understand something that I should have fully learned years ago. The fry pan was at a condo years ago and the cut wire is just an example. On our last trip some things (tv, microwave) failed to work (when we were ready to head home), but Long View helped trouble shoot on the phone. It was the inverter and has been corrected. I have read Ron's four steps in case we encounter problems in the future. Thanks, Charlie
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:12 PM   #17
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Ha Ha Ha, you "Cool" guys got me confused (not hard - I'm an old guy).

Charlie (Coolchas11), I started thinking you had the GFCI problem when I should have asked Mike (Coolbreeze) which circuit breaker caused the GFCI to trip.

So now, in addition to all my going on & on, I've got to apologize for not paying attention & mixing you guys up.

Mike, where are you with the circuit identification tests?
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:21 PM   #18
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Haven't even narrowed it down yet. When I connect it to the house (15A, GFCI) then it blow even if I click on any other breaker besides the Main. First thing I did was pull the converter plug and it still acts the same way. Now when I run it off my generator I can put on the slide AC lights, TV, and Ceiling fan it can run them. Turn all of them off and try to run either the microwave or water heater and it blows the GFCI on the generator. Guess I'm going to have to pull out the breaker panel and disconnect the wires themselves one by one to see which circuit I'm having problems with. My guess is that it is either the cord itself or the AC in the slide. They are the places that get the most movement.
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Old 07-10-2007, 08:50 AM   #19
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Don't forget to also disconnect the neutral wire also. It sounds like it might actually be a neutral wire that is shorted or grounded.

I believe I would do the hot water heater first if it was me, especially since that is what the dealer worked on and then the problem started.

Also, do you have 50 amp or 30 amp in your RV?

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Old 09-17-2007, 05:55 AM   #20
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Default GFI

Try replacing the GFI they go bad had to replace 2 over the years new one's worked old ones didn't
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