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Old 06-15-2021, 09:38 PM   #21
Chuck v
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Jim,


It is difficult for me to research this topic without access to the actual parts, but let me start with some terminology:


What NAPA calls a 'continuous duty' solenoid is one that can sustain a constant current through its field windings to keep it pulled in. An 'ignition type' solenoid would be one that is not continuous duty, meant to switch a high current for a short period of time -- like the starter motor on an engine. By contrast, a "latching relay" does not need a steady application of power to its field winding to maintain a switched condition, and can be pulsed into either the ON or OFF state where it remains until the next control voltage pulse.


I suspect the solenoid you got from NAPA looks much like the first image below. The Intelletic is shown in the second image, the KiB in the third, and Cole Hersee in the fourth image. Which one is most like the relay you took out that was the original part???


Chuck
NAPA solenoid.jpg
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Latching relays -- Intelletec, KiB and Cole Hersee.jpg (119.0 KB, 0 views)
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Old 06-15-2021, 10:49 PM   #22
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Chuck - I indeed have a lot to learn. Thanks for the descriptions. The solenoid I took out, and the one I purchased at NAPA, look exactly like the first image.
-Jim
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Old 06-16-2021, 08:42 AM   #23
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Jim,


Curious that the original part was a three terminal device...maybe we are not talking about a battery disconnect relay here. You mentioned that a local guy identified this as the trouble making part initially...maybe it is a case of wrongful identification. There may be a solenoid of this type in the bay to provide the TEMPORARY connection of the house bank with the chassis bank to assist in engine starting when the chassis bank is low...there is a switch on the dash that activates this function (usually marked with a battery icon or similar graphic...or the words battery boost perhaps - I forget the exact marking on that coach.) If you have an assistant, try listening to/feeling the solenoid in question when another person actuates the dash switch -- it should be clear when it pulls in.


If possible, please post a picture of the bay where these relays and electrical devices are located...as I recall it is on the curb side and adjacent to the battery trays. It will help us in our discussions.


Maybe Phil (proost) is still reading this thread and can post a picture of his bay as well for comparison...


Thanks for being patient, long distance trouble shooting by text is not an easy thing...


Chuck
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Old 06-16-2021, 09:13 AM   #24
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Chuck,
I have lots of photos on my iPhone but do not know how to get them on this post. I have sent them as a text to my brother-in-law's phone and that always works. For some reason, I can't get them to go to an email address. If I could, I could easily attach them to a message.
-Jim
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:25 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryj View Post
Chuck - the solenoid I pulled out of the RV, which two RV technicians told me to replace, is only marked 87-12V and 6CB. The one that I purchased at NAPA is marked ST95 and M21038. It's a NAPA Echlin product. I just called the NAPA store. What I purchased was a "continuous duty" solenoid, and I could have purchased an "ignition-type" solenoid. I mentioned what you said about a "latching relay," but he didn't know what that meant. I guess my question is, should I take back the one I purchased, and where can I find the correct one?
-Jim
Jim, are these what you are talking about?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AB9FC31E-4A71-4A7B-B0B2-0C46D3558A76.jpg (246.7 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg A5B1E0B7-8F28-4A80-9434-D9DD59EAA4CB.jpg (196.2 KB, 4 views)
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:29 AM   #26
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I recognize both of those, but they are not what I replaced. Chuck's first of four images showed what it looked like.

Thanks!
-Jim
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:39 AM   #27
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Here’s also a picture of the bay to help with the discussion. Since I live in mine, let me know if you need any other details or pics! I can also pop the rocker switch panel to show you how my wiring is configured back there if that would help you.
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:40 AM   #28
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Jim,


The pictures that Phil posted are very useful to our discussions. The upper one shows a paper label on the right end that identifies it as the coach disconnect...this is the one that we should focus on. Please note that there are two fuses integral to this disconnect as shown in my attached mark up of the image. Verify these fuses are intact (usually these are 5 amp fuses, I believe...)


I will send you a private message on this site with some information on how to get your pictures to me...the iPhone is a mystery to me so I can't give you hints on how to make it work for you



Chuck
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File Type: jpg fuses on battery disconnect latching relay.jpg (188.7 KB, 0 views)
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:43 AM   #29
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Thanks, Chuck. I'm pretty sure I checked those fuses. Otherwise, I'll check them next time I go down to the coach, which should be tonight.
-Jim
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:14 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proost View Post
Here’s also a picture of the bay to help with the discussion. Since I live in mine, let me know if you need any other details or pics! I can also pop the rocker switch panel to show you how my wiring is configured back there if that would help you.
Somehow, the attachment didn’t load so here’s the picture of the bay.
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File Type: jpeg 8271466A-7626-4840-A286-F12CD163478A.jpeg (370.4 KB, 4 views)
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:20 AM   #31
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Thanks, Phil. That's exactly what my bay looks like. The last RV tech removed the panel with the battery-disconnect switches. However, it would only pull out about an inch, so it was inaccessible. In the process, it appears 1-2 wires were pulled out and were just laying there (2 wires were laying there so I assume they both were pulled off when he pulled the panel out). I extended all of the wires so that the backs of the switches are now accessible. I got the chassis side working, but the coach side is the one that is not working.
-Jim
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:25 AM   #32
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Here’s what I do to upload a photo using iPhone for me.
1 When you reply to the thread, scroll down to “additional options“ until you see manage attachments. Click on that.
2. Then, at the very top you can press a button “choose file” and then immediately after doing that it will ask you if you want to select a photo from your photo library. Select your photo.
3. Once you do that, and the photo has been selected, don’t forget to press the upload button to the right of the screen.
4. Then, select “Close window” at the bottom.

Hope this helps.
- Phil
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 30D834F3-D93A-4696-8CED-78703ED79BE0.jpeg (511.9 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpeg 5496F7B2-DD50-4A8D-81E4-5648C02EEDE8.jpeg (350.0 KB, 0 views)
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:29 AM   #33
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Thanks, Phil for those instructions. The problem is, I'm using a desktop computer for all of my email (and these postings). The photos are on my iPhone and I can't get them from my iPhone to my computer. Also, I can't access this forum from my iPhone.

If I could just get the photos from my iPhone to my computer, then I could post them.
-Jim
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:06 PM   #34
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Jim,


The pictures you sent to me came through OK. I can forward them to e-mail using the 'share' icon on my android phone...


I noticed that your picture showed only the Chassis disconnect relay according to its paper label -- did you also check both fuses on the other one?


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Old 06-16-2021, 01:08 PM   #35
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I'm glad the photos came through ok. I'll be going to the RV again this evening and can take any more photos that you might like to see. I think I've checked most of the fuses, but will check them again today.
-Jim
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Old 06-16-2021, 01:40 PM   #36
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Thanks Jim -- a wide picture of the DC relay bay layout similar to what Phil posted above in his #30 reply would probably be useful...we know the T40C you have may be a bit different from his T40A layout.



I do see a solenoid in his bay similar to the one you sourced at NAPA and suspect this is either the starter solenoid or the battery boost solenoid based on its proximity to the disconnect relays...



Chuck
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:18 AM   #37
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Jim,


Circling back here to update documentation after our phone conversation of yesterday evening. The tests you performed may have pointed to a failed disconnect latching relay. (see the italicized quotation from my e-mail below...) Attached below is the PDF document from Intelletec on their relay and the schematics of how they are used in coaches -- page 8 of the manual is the schematics we were discussing. I am also including text of my e-mail to you this morning, where I pointed out how I overlooked some important items on our simple testing last night...so the issue may still be in the switch itself or in the wiring.


Jim and Wayne,

I overlooked an important detail during last evening’s call that may mean the relay is OK and the wiring is at fault. I am re-attaching the document from Intelletec and will highlight some information here as well.

To operate the latching relay BOTH the “I” and the “S” terminals must have a connection through the rocker switch. We did not do this last evening… To latch ON, the I terminl needs +12 volts and AT THE SAME TIME the S terminal needs a ground connection. To latch the relay OFF, the I terminal needs a ground connection while simultaneously the S terminal needs a +12 volt connection. The momentary nature of the rocker switch ensures that the relay coil is not powered long term in either the ON or the OFF latched state.

Sorry for this oversight – it may still be a bad switch or a wiring issue (it also could still be a bad relay, but further testing will need to involve connections to BOTH small stud connections at the same time as described above…) I should have thought to test the working latching relay, the chassis disconnect, last night as well -- and that would have pointed out the error of my suggested test method. Here is the text from the Intelletec document which I have highlighted to emphasize my error of last evening:
THE RELAY -
The Battery Disconnect Relay is a mechanically latching switch that operates by the momentary application
of battery voltage to the coil terminals in one direction for latching (closed) or the other direction for
unlatching (open).
To close the relay, +12 volts is applied to the “I” terminal and ground to the “S” terminal of the relay. When
this is done, the plunger is pulled into the coil and the contacts are connected. While this happens, the rod
magnet suspended above the plunger is attracted (opposite poles attract) to the top of the plunger by the
magnetic field. See FIGURE 1
When the voltage is removed from the coil, the plunger gets pushed upward by the return spring, but
cannot move because the rod magnet is in the way. See FIGURE 2

To open the relay, +12 volts is applied to the “S” terminal and ground on the “I” terminal. When this is
done, the plunger is again pulled into the coil. However, since the magnetic polarity of the coil is reversed,
the rod magnet is repelled (like poles oppose), and swings out of the way. See FIGURE 3

Sorry for all the confusion, hope this helps isolate the real failure mode and components involved.

Chuck



Also, for those following this thread that might need to source such a part, here is the link that I e-mailed you yesterday...
https://www.rvpartscenter.com/shop-b...055-000-detail


Chuck
Attached Files
File Type: pdf intelletec 53-00066-100-1.pdf (206.2 KB, 1 views)
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:42 AM   #38
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Chuck - thank you for sending the document. I've saved it and will print it off and read it over carefully. And thanks for all your help. I'm looking forward to this issue being resolved once and for all.
-Jim
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Old 06-20-2021, 10:43 AM   #39
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MY suspicion is that if panel inspected closely with FLASHLIGHT & MAGNIFIER AND/OR MIRROR OR MAGNIFY MIRROR, you will be able to determine WHERE the wire goes? MIGHT also require determining what wire/s is keeping panel from coming out further, maybe cut/ splice/ extend to fix that issue if just 1-2 wires?
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Old 06-20-2021, 11:33 AM   #40
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Thanks Theene,


Jim and I have been conversing via phone in real time and have established which wire appears to be missing (or lost behind the panel.) It is not a case of having an extra wire that we are trying to find where it goes, but rather a MISSING wire that needs to go to a known location. Most likely it popped off and is back behind the panel hiding. Jim already extended some wires to give better access...


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