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Old 06-28-2012, 06:13 PM   #21
nemo45
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Default Re: HELP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayChez
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemo45
Well what happened? Did you check the fuses on the converter? They are there if you hook up your batteries wrong. I accidently hit the positive pole with thje ground wire when the inv installing new batteries and blew all three of the automotive type fuses on the converter. Didn't know it untill I saw low DC blinking on the refrigerator. Replaced the fuses and everything has been fine. On my motorhome(2006 Gulf Stream Tour Master)the xantex inverter really has nothing to do with the 12V as it doesn't have a built in converter in it. It might be
nice if we knew what year and model you motor home is, we could be more specific with help.

What do you mean the investor/charger has nothing to do with 12volt? It inverts DC 12volts to Ac 110 volts and if you have the xantrex 458 it has a transfer board right in the investor.
First what's an investor. I assume you mean an inverter. My inverter has nothing to do with the 12V system the runs the lights and everything else that is 12V in the coach. The converter and 2-12V house batteries take care of that. My inverter has no converter in it as some do, but it does invert 12dc supplied by the 4-6V batteries attached to it to 110V ac. This so you can operate things like a tv or a fan without running the generator. Also you can operate a residential type refrigerator while going down the road. Some inverters do have a converter in them and this does charge the house 12V batteries, but the inverter itself really has nothing to do with the house batteries.
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: HELP!

You must have a completely different inverter then what I have. I have the Xantrex 458 Freedom 3000 Watt inverter/charger. The transfer switch is in the inverter/ charger. I know because I had a lose connection on the transfer switch and I took the inverter to the main Xantrex shop in Portland, Oregon. They found a lose connection to the board and got it fixed.

My inverter changes DC to AC from the four six volt batteries to operate the microwave/convection oven, televisions and any other AC product with the exception of the heat pumps/air conditioners. All the plug outlets are hot when the inverter/charger is on. Not like a lot of other entry level coaches where only a couple are hot when the inverter is on.

The charger on the inverter/charger, charges the house batteries only. It does not charge the chassis batteries. A person could find a way to charge both, but it was not the choice of the coach builder to do so.

Now as to the error I made in miss-spelling inverter and you making a big deal about it is kids stuff. We are grown men and most of us retired and don't give a hoot about a word that was not spelled correct.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:55 PM   #23
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Hey guys!

Sorry to leave everyone in suspense, but it is still an ongoing issue.

I have the same inverter/charger as you Ray...Freedom 458.

We've been extremely busy the past month since we got back from the NYC trip when the lights went out.

I too was going on the assumption that the transfer switch was the culprit. When doing the testing, the LED indicator did not always light.

Ordering the IOTA ITS-50R Transfer Switch was no easy task. First, they don't make it anymore. The replacement is the PowerMax PMTS 50. I ordered the unit after talking to several distributors and was confident that it would be an easy swap. I replaced the IOTA about 5 years ago and it was a simple "take the old one out, and put the new one in".

When the new transfer switch arrived last week, it did not look right. After the holiday I called and went through a day of phone tag and e-mails to convince them it was not the unit I ordered. I finally had to send a photo to prove it. I'm now waiting for the replacement. Again, if that wasn't the issue, I'll have a spare.

The really strange thing now is that everything in the coach seems to be working correctly. I have it plugged into shore power (only 15 amp household current) and all seems O.K. When we got back from NYC, I purposely did not plug into shore power to see how long the batteries would last. It was almost two weeks and all the 12v items continued to work when I would go out and check.

The tech told me to check the push button breaker, but his description of it being tripped was a bit vague. When I touch the button, it seems loose, but does not seem to be "Popped Out!" I'm praying the problem is the transfer switch at $100.00 and not the inverter/charger at $1,000.00!

Don't know what the issue is yet...may need to do an exorcism

Thanks for your interest and I promise to keep you posted.
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Old 07-10-2012, 01:53 PM   #24
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Default Re: HELP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayChez
You must have a completely different inverter then what I have. I have the Xantrex 458 Freedom 3000 Watt inverter/charger. The transfer switch is in the inverter/ charger. I know because I had a lose connection on the transfer switch and I took the inverter to the main Xantrex shop in Portland, Oregon. They found a lose connection to the board and got it fixed.

My inverter changes DC to AC from the four six volt batteries to operate the microwave/convection oven, televisions and any other AC product with the exception of the heat pumps/air conditioners. All the plug outlets are hot when the inverter/charger is on. Not like a lot of other entry level coaches where only a couple are hot when the inverter is on.

The charger on the inverter/charger, charges the house batteries only. It does not charge the chassis batteries. A person could find a way to charge both, but it was not the choice of the coach builder to do so.

Now as to the error I made in miss-spelling inverter and you making a big deal about it is kids stuff. We are grown men and most of us retired and don't give a hoot about a word that was not spelled correct.
Ok, I'll explain it again. My coach has eight batteries, two starting (chassis) batteries, two coach(house) batteries all 12V. It has a bank of four 6V batteries connected to the inverter. I too have a Xantrex Freedom 458 Series Inverter/Charger model no. 81-2010-12, but its 2000W. It does have a built in transfer switch but according to the Xantrex web site that is for the inverter only, to switch from the inverter to shore power when you plug in. I have a seperate transfer switch for the generator. This transfer switch for the generator is under the bed in the rear of the coach and clearly marked transfer switch, also under the bed is an Intellipower 9180 converter to which I have added a "charge wizard" to make it a three stage charger. The Intellipower converter maintains the two 12V coach batteries. I have also installed a Trick-L-Start 5 amp charger that charges the starting (chassis) batteries when you are plugged into shore power thru the converter. The inverter/charger chargers only the bank of 6V batteries and these supply 12V DC to the inverter to invert it to 110 AC. The inverter basically has nothing to do with the 12V system which supplies the lights, refrigerator control, vent fans, water pump, water heater ignition etc., that system is connected to the two 12V house (coach) batteries and the converter. Besides not running the A/C the inverter is not wired to the 110V to the water heater either. I don't how your coach is setup but above is the way mine is.
If I offended you with questioning "investor", I apollogize. It is kid stuff. But sometimes, I just can't help myself. Since this forum doesn't have spell check I read my post several times to make sure I have the words I know how to spell right before I post it. By the way, not all of us are men on this forum. Oops, there I go again.
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Old 07-10-2012, 05:40 PM   #25
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Default Re: HELP!

OK, so you have eight batteries. Two twelve volt batteries for the chassis to crank the engine over. But this other is what throws a loop to me. You say you have two more twelve volt batteries for supplying power to the twelve volt lighting. Then you say you have four more six volt batteries, I imagine hooked up in series to supply power for??????? Are you saying these other four six volt batteries are used only when you use the inverter? If that is the case then you do have a weird set up.
On my Gulf Stream the six volt batteries hooked up in series which will give you twelve volts are used for the lights and also used when inverting to 110 volts.

I hardly use my inverter, but occasionally I will use it before we hook up to shore power in a camp ground to check if I have a spot where I can get satellite. That is the first thing I do when I arrive to a new preserve is check to see if the King dome can lock into the two satellites.

There is a box inside the bed box on mine that might also be another transfer switch, but I really have not looked at it that close.
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Old 07-10-2012, 06:42 PM   #26
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Default Re: HELP!

My battery system is exactly like Don and Carols. The 4 six volt btys are dedicated specifically to the inverter and provide 110 v to all plugs in the coach when not connected to shore power or running on generator. There are two pairs wired in series and then the pairs are joined in parallel to provide 12v to the inverter. My TourMaster and I assume most have a residential refrigerator which only runs on 110v, therefore we ALWAYS need 110v power available. We can use the microwave, toaster, coffee pot,etc.,without being connected to shore power or running the generator. When shore power is unplugged or generator is shut down the inverter takes over instantaneously. The inverter will not run the roof A/C though.

The two 12v deep cycle (coach) btys run lights, water pump, ceiling vent fans, electric step, gas furnace, etc.

Hope this helps rather than confuse the issue.

John
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:09 PM   #27
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Default Re: HELP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtking
My battery system is exactly like Don and Carols. The 4 six volt btys are dedicated specifically to the inverter and provide 110 v to all plugs in the coach when not connected to shore power or running on generator. There are two pairs wired in series and then the pairs are joined in parallel to provide 12v to the inverter. My TourMaster and I assume most have a residential refrigerator which only runs on 110v, therefore we ALWAYS need 110v power available. We can use the microwave, toaster, coffee pot,etc.,without being connected to shore power or running the generator. When shore power is unplugged or generator is shut down the inverter takes over instantaneously. The inverter will not run the roof A/C though.

The two 12v deep cycle (coach) btys run lights, water pump, ceiling vent fans, electric step, gas furnace, etc.

Hope this helps rather than confuse the issue.

John
Exactly. Although, I do not have a residential Refrigerator. They went to residential refrig in 2007 mine is a 2006. We have a small 3 cu. ft. freezer underneath and will use the inverter when traveling for that. I don't understand why Ray doesn't get that you can have the inverter system and the coach 12V battery system seperated as ours are. I believe all the Tour Masters are like this.
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:30 PM   #28
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Default Re: HELP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayChez
OK, so you have eight batteries. Two twelve volt batteries for the chassis to crank the engine over. But this other is what throws a loop to me. You say you have two more twelve volt batteries for supplying power to the twelve volt lighting. Then you say you have four more six volt batteries, I imagine hooked up in series to supply power for??????? Are you saying these other four six volt batteries are used only when you use the inverter? If that is the case then you do have a weird set up.
On my Gulf Stream the six volt batteries hooked up in series which will give you twelve volts are used for the lights and also used when inverting to 110 volts.

I hardly use my inverter, but occasionally I will use it before we hook up to shore power in a camp ground to check if I have a spot where I can get satellite. That is the first thing I do when I arrive to a new preserve is check to see if the King dome can lock into the two satellites.

There is a box inside the bed box on mine that might also be another transfer switch, but I really have not looked at it that close.
So, you have only six batteries total, four batteries for the inverter and two starting batteries? I don't understand why you think I have a wierd set up. It works fine. And, I like having the extra batteries and the systems seperate. I don't see it as being redundant, rather a feature that allows you to use both systems at the same time, while having less of a load on each.
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:34 PM   #29
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Default Re: HELP!

With the side by side residential refrigerator we really didn't need the extra freezer so I took it out and use the storage space for other "necessities".

I think Ray has a system similar to what our Discovery had--two 12v chassis btys and two 6v coach btys in series to provide 12v to normal RV stuff and in addition provide 12v to 1000w (in our case) useless inverter connected to one plug!!

John
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Old 07-10-2012, 08:45 PM   #30
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Nope! I have six batteries. Two chasis batteries 12 volt to start the cat engine. Then there are four deep cycle six volt batteries hooked up in series I believe to power any thing that is 12volt. Now if I am with out shore power THEN I turn on the 3000 watt inverter to run anything that requires 110 volts.

I can see if you have a residential type refrigerator where you need more batteries, but if you have the propane/electric 1200lrim, THEN you really do not need those two extra 12 volt batteries. Just extra expense because the four six volt would do the job. Maybe it is because you have a smaller inverter.
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:17 PM   #31
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I have what Ray has, except, I replaced the two 6v house batteries with 2 12v batteries. When boondocking (which is rare...just an overnight on the way to somewhere), then the inverter comes on to power 110 items like TV. Fridge goes on gas when not on shore power.
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:02 PM   #32
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O.K. I finally got the new Transfer Switch. The PowerMax PMTS 50 is slightly different from the IOTA (discontinued). I called the Power Max tech to verify the wire placement and put it in the coach.

Everything seems to be working fine, but I guess I won't be able to relax until I get to a park with 50amp service and see if the same issues arise as when we were in NYC in June.

If anything changes, I'll let you know. Thanks for all the input.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:43 AM   #33
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O.K.
So it's been a little over a week since I installed the new transfer switch.

I went out to the coach today and guess what....no 12v power!

The Xantrex panel reads that the batteries are full (green)...the 110 system is working on shore power(TV, Microwave, wall plugs), but everything that runs off 12v is dead.

Nothing works when the inverter is on. No 12v or 110v
CORRECTION! with inverter on, 110v is on

Everything works with the generator on, but there is no power to start the generator unless I start the engine.

Am I missing something or do I need a new inverter???
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:27 AM   #34
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Default Re: HELP!

Did you check the 25amp breaker on the inverter itself.
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:10 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemo45
Did you check the 25amp breaker on the inverter itself.
That seems to be o.k. Talked to a tech from Xantrex and he had me check a few things and his conclusion was that the charger/inverter seems to be operating correctly (I'm not convinced). With shore power disconnected, the panel reads that the batteries are at 14v and fully charged. With the inverter on, the microwave and TV operate. But steps barely move, and house lights are dim. He suggested I get an electrician to see what may be drawing power.

However, that still doesn't make sense to me (and my very limited knowledge of the subject). If plugged into shore power, and the house batteries are charging, how can it draw more power than is being brought in.

If I liken it to water, how can a dripping faucet consume more water than can come in from the supply hose?

Also, with the generator running, 110v is fine but 12v power seems low and I must start engine to get generator to turn over.

Another curiosity...when I start the engine, I have full 12 power. The house lights, steps, etc. all come on. If I let it run a while, I seem to have stored some power. When the motor is off, I seem to be using power but not storing any.

Am I wrong assuming the house lights work off the house batteries?

It seems to me that I am running on two separate systems. Shore power gets me TV, microwave and plugs. The house lights, fridge and A/C will run until the batteries give out. (Fridge and A/C need 12v to operate their thermostats. Fridge won't even run on gas without 12v to operate the thermostat.) Then I must run the engine to charge the batteries.


UPDATE!

I called the Xantex tech line back again and told him about the 12v systems coming alive when the engine was running.

His conclusion was that it was "obvious that the 12v systems run off the chassis batteries and not the house batteries".

I don't think that's correct...if there isn't enough power to run the steps and some lights, there certainly wouldn't be enough power to start the engine! Am I right????
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:05 PM   #36
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Default Re: HELP! 12v issues.

I believe you are right. I believe that you have a ground wire on your twelve volt system that is not getting a good ground and therefore you are not getting good continuity off your house batteries. Check all your ground wires coming off your house batteries.

Which Xantrex shop did you contact? "The one in Portland Oregon has a good reputation on fixing inverters and a very knowledgable young man was the tech when I visited last, about two years ago. Not sure if the same person still there, but if you have not called the Portland Xantrex shop, I would give them a call.
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:57 PM   #37
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Default Re: HELP! 12v issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayChez
I believe that you have a ground wire on your twelve volt system that is not getting a good ground and therefore you are not getting good continuity off your house batteries. Check all your ground wires coming off your house batteries.
I think you're getting closer to the issue Ray. I went to Advance Auto and bought a multi-meter (all I had were the idiot light testers).

I put the meter on one of the house batteries and it read 13.9v. Then I figured I would check the other one, but since it was jumped to the first one, I assumed it would read the same...But no!, it read 1.0v.

Back me up on this theory....
using two 12v deep cell batteries (positive to positive and negative to negative)
1. If they are connected properly, they should read the same.
2. If they do not read the same, then they are not (properly) connected (bad or loose ground)
then...
3. If they are not properly connected
a. one of the batteries can be bad or,
b. one battery is not being charged and thus discharging the other battery with use.

Have to go out now, but will check for responses later. Probably won't be able to check connections until the weekend.

Thanks everyone for your input.
Ray, Special thanks to you for your years of advice.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:57 PM   #38
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Default Re: HELP! 12v issues.

OK, now we are getting some interesting information when you mentioned one battery fully charged and the other almost completely dead. The two batteries should be hooked up parallel and you mentioned that they are. So if there are no loose connections on your parallel wiring, then what is causing your problem is that one battery that has shorted out and is bad. Needs to be replaced. But to make sure I would take that dead battery out and by itself hook up another battery charger and see what happens. If it charges right up, then it is a loose connection somewhere. If it does not and the charger shows a fault, then the battery is bad. Your two batteries hooked up parallel should give you 200 AH. What you are getting now is only half or 100 AH.
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Old 08-09-2012, 07:18 AM   #39
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Default Re: HELP! 12v issues.

Ray,

I'm going to try to get to the testing and charging today. I'll keep you posted.

Mike
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:54 PM   #40
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Default Re: HELP! 12v issues.

Eureka! I think!

One end of the jumper cable between the negative posts on the house batteries had come loose and was not making contact. The instant I pushed it on and tightened it, I could hear the charger start to hum.

I opened coach door and the steps swung out quickly and completely. I went inside and turned on all the lights and they were bright and shiny!

I'm trying to not get too excited, but the dramatic result of a few twists of a ratchet tell me the problem is resolved. Also, I'm a bit embarrassed that I didn't think of that first!

Many thanks to the great folks who shared their knowledge, experience and expertise. Oh yeah, and a hug from the wife!
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