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Old 08-29-2006, 11:18 AM   #21
RJ82much
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsadmin
C'mon man, don't give up the fight! Don't be so apathetic! My last hoorah on this subject will be when I get my 200 names and send them certified mail to the "family". If that goes nowhere than at least I did my best for the cause!
Hey admin,,, don't worry, I didn't roll over & play dead on the documentation issue. True, I'm merely facing the current reality, but you do have your show of force with your signatures (that does include mine!), & I've got a little something up my sleeve as well. This issue is NOT dead in my mind.

A little background. Recall that I have spoken at length with the (now retired) head electrical engineer of all GS. He agreed with me that every coach should have the diagrams included with them so that field mechanics anywhere would at least have the information tool available to get the coach up & running if not completely repaired. This very respected member of the GS family could not get the policy changed. These are the footsteps we are following.

Ron, as you point out, there are many owners who could care less about a wire size, connection, or color. They wouldn't touch it if it fell down on their foot. But their repairman out in East Osh-Kosh might benefit from the info. Of course there are the opposite: for me size, connection, & color are everything, my life. I am a power electrical engineer & I don't like to guess. When that neighbor comes over asking for help, I always answer, "Yep, show me your diagrams." Otherwise, it's all guesswork which consumes time & risks the neighbor's rig because I'm guessing.

The last "Bob" story occured at PDI. I asked tech what the unlabeled kitchen switch with the red light was for. He didn't know & managed to move me along. I concluded no biggie, I'd figure it out later - after I flicked it on and off several times. After seeing the circuit breaker (with the anti-operate clip) behind the water heater control panel, I started to get a glimmer of understanding. I finally got my answer from a set of drawings I managed to abscound with. DON'T turn the switch on without water in your tank... else, "POOF". The head electrical engineer agreed that perhaps they should mark the switch, however, he was a short-timer by then
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Old 08-29-2006, 09:33 PM   #22
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Hey guys,

I never said it wasn't a good idea to have as much documentation as possible for your rig, I just stated that it wouldn't stop me from buying a RV that would fit ours needs and wants if I couldn't get a print.

Admin, I think it is great that your mother is s fulltimer. As you descibed, I would not put her in the catagory I descibed because she knows to have as much documentation as possible. I am sure that she knows more about her unit than 90% of the others on the road. I am sure that you are very proud of her and her lifestyle, I know I would be. Good for her and as the saying goes, "You go girl." I hope that I might meet her someday and shake her hand.

I agree wholeheartedly that good documentation is important and a cost effective matter to control ones own budget whatever it might be.

Oh, I am not rich and also do most of my own maintenance. I have a maintenance background of 31-1/2 years in the steel industry. The first 15 years I was a Millwright and 16-1/2 years in management. I know the importance of having good prints for anything, be it electrical or mechanical (plumbing etc.)

I also support the efforts for trying to get GS to supply the needed prints and documentation. I signed the petition when I first found this forum because I think it is a good idea.

Yep, I support any efforts to get the best documentation possible from ALL manufacturers of components and coach manufacturers themselves.

With that said, If I offended anyone, it was not my intent.

Ron
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Old 08-30-2006, 02:29 AM   #23
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Omigosh Ron, you didn't offend anyone. As you can see, this certainly is a "hot-button" topic for me & many others. We start seeing red, but not at you. As a matter of fact, documentation is probably the reason for the founding of this group.

It became so heated (as someone recently pointed out) over at the Gulf Stream Coach supported Streamer's forum, that GS pulled down the site. In fact, I was probably the fault. I didn't get hot under the collar or nasty, but I was a persistant nag that likely inflamed others. I'm sorry for any part I played in ruining the rally discussion group, especially since my nagging had no apparent effect on GS policy.

Anyway, as you discovered, we can always stir up a lively round by saying the word, "schematic" (ooops, I did it again!)

But Ron, you have said nothing to apologize for... well, other than you were a millwright. Ha Ha Ha. I worked in a papermill as maintenance superviser/planner for a couple years - got to know & love our union millwrights. whew, tough group. From the steel mills, I'd imagine a REALLY tough group! Thanks for taking the lead in so many of our GS Owners discussions
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Old 08-30-2006, 08:57 AM   #24
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This is all good stuff, lets keep the forum active and try and find more members like you two to add to the "flavor". No hurt feelings here, nothing to apologize for, this is what discussion is about...different perspectives coming together in a civilized manner.

BTW, Ron, my mother is an escapee and I think she may even be an officer of the singles-escapee group.
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Old 08-30-2006, 09:13 AM   #25
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Ron has more posts than me: 128 vs 101.

Hey Admin, Ron has more posts than YOU! 128 vs 127.
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:45 AM   #26
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When I e-mailed GSC motech and asked:

I would like to change my 19.5 wheels for 22.5 wheels. Is this feasible??

Answer was : Contact your local dealer for this issue.

Signed: Lori Kaler
Customer Service Manager
800 289 8787 Ext 3657
[email protected]
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Old 08-30-2006, 07:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ82much
Ron has more posts than me: 128 vs 101.

Hey Admin, Ron has more posts than YOU! 128 vs 127.
Okay Bob, What are you up to now?

My Post numbers are bigger than yours are!! Nah Nah Nah

Ron
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:29 PM   #28
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Well, I can see that in order to win this, we have to go over to total WORD count... Then I'd win hands down. I don't know how to tell a story in less than 500 when 50 would do....

what do you think about that, eh? )
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:28 AM   #29
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Bob,
My post count is now 137 vs yours at 103.... You are falling further behind.

Hey, word count might work for ya, but I am pretty windy also. :P

Ron
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:39 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retird2Golf
When I e-mailed GSC motech and asked:

I would like to change my 19.5 wheels for 22.5 wheels. Is this feasible??

Answer was : Contact your local dealer for this issue.

Signed: Lori Kaler
Customer Service Manager
800 289 8787 Ext 3657
[email protected]
WOW, that would be quite a challenge to do. One would have to look at the overall diameter of the tire used, would have to figure if the weight capacity would be correct for the tire, also would have to figure the circumference to figure out the difference in the speedometer, and would also have to figure out if there would be clearance for the 22.5" tires in the wheel wells.

Hmmmm.... Wonder if someone makes a lift kit for your coach.

I would say that it is doable, IF all the above is figured out and there is clearance for the 22.5" rims/tire combination, albeit it would be expensive.

Ron
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:58 AM   #31
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Rear clearance , no problem Front , maybe turning radius. Weight would be calculated on groos weight of loaded coach. my GPS would give me a check on the Speedo. I am going to have the coach "Leveled anywayso clearances coulb be adjusted. Now: .....

6 22.5 wheels $3000.00
6 michelins $2000.00
Misc lift work $1000.00

Improvement in ride and stance ..... Priceless !!

(At least that's what Visa tells me )
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Old 08-31-2006, 10:37 AM   #32
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Hey Clyde, The factory told me that they put 22.5s on my coach without making adj. for the tires thats why my tires hit the fenders on turns like I said before they changed the fenders to tourmaster ones with full arc no more problems.

Earl
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Old 08-31-2006, 10:50 AM   #33
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Thanks Earl , I thought I had read in a post that you had 22.5s.
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Old 08-31-2006, 11:46 AM   #34
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Clyde, The price for the wheels looks high. Was that for all 6 aluminum wheels?

Usually the rear inside dual is a steel rim because the studs are usually not long enough for two aluminum rims which are much thicker. On our previous coach we thought about replacing the steel rims with the liners with aluminum and I was quoted a price of $1200.00 for 4 aluminum rims, mounted and balanced. These were new rims, Alcoa I believe or was it Accuride, Hmmm.... This was from a local tire dealer that did a lot of big rig truck tire sales/repair and also deals in auto/pickup truck tires/rims.

We didn't do it because the wife found our new coach which she twisted my arm and we purchased.

I would think you could get all 6 22.5" rims, 4 aluminum and 2 steel for about $1500.00, I would definitely shop around.

That darn priceless card.....

Ron
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:57 PM   #35
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Thanks Ron, Shopping is a must


Clyde
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Old 09-27-2006, 04:34 PM   #36
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Ron, I guess you could be right but I don't think you are on this one. My own experience in customer service tells me it is probably more a matter of GS wanting to minimize the number of people it can expect calls for help from, than it is them wanting to "protect" dealer's profits. At least with dealers GS have some control over getting service people to attend formal training on their products and so on.

There could also be a legitimate claim related to protection of trade secrets, although I suspect not. As someone else mentioned, it would be laughably easy for anyone so inclined to disassemble a sample coach and reverse engineer it. I know - I've done it (for a small piece of the coach at least)! My story on this is a little further on in this post.

Based on my own past experience trying to get technical info out of GS, I think it could very well be that they just don't have that kind of information around. Oh, they may have some sort of reference documentation, but the impression I get is that every coach is kind of a one-off deal - that is they don't build 2 exactly the same. This is probably more true for the older coaches. So, truly, they couldn't give you the electrical plans for your coach if they wanted to in that case.

Here's my story: I was puzzled by a switch that I couldn't figure out the function of. It was located in the same panel as the LR overheads, porch light, step, and cargo bay door switches. GS customer service tried really hard to get the information for me, including calling up retired engineers who worked at the plant where and when my coach was built. I got some suggestions, but none of them panned out. Finally, I resolved to disassemble the coach and trace the darn wires myself. I took out the switch panel, traced the wires into a race to the bottom of the wall by the door, tore off the interior door trim, header over the door trim, and found the same race and the wires from the switch in the panel. One pair went up to the porch light, but the other pair stopped about half way up. They appeared to go outside in the vicinity of the grab handle by the door. So I took the handle off and there, much to my surpise were the two wires, running to a burned out light bulb in the handle! Shows you what a low-class RVer I am: I did not expect to own a lighted grab handle!!! So I replaced the bulb and the mystery of the switch was solved.

My point in this is that GS might have been glad to give me the info, but seemed not to have it themselves.

I know there is a push throughout the industry to develop better documentation of the whole coach, because currently this is lacking just about everywhere, not just GS. GS could definitely pick up a competetive advantage by being among the first to offer this level of support, I think.

FWIW....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GStream40
I used to be involved in the purchasing of production machinery for the company I retired from. We always negotiated a complete print & bill of material package in any machine purchase.

...

Print packages are expensive and they cut out the maker of the equipment and the suppliers of maintenance to maintain it since it allows the end user to find other suppliers and do their own maintenance.

As this applies to the RV Industry, providing complete prints to the buyer/owner could cut out the RV dealer's service department to a certain degree and also the manufacturer suppling some of the parts. With this thought in mind, maybe that is one of the reasons that Gulf Stream has maintained this policy on not releasing prints to the owners.

I...
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Old 09-27-2006, 06:05 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaster1
I know there is a push throughout the industry to develop better documentation of the whole coach, because currently this is lacking just about everywhere, not just GS. GS could definitely pick up a competetive advantage by being among the first to offer this level of support, I think.

FWIW....
Winniebago was one of the first. Take a look at what they provide online:

http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/Wiring.htm

http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/Plumbing.htm

http://www.winnebagoind.com/service/webcd.htm

Impressive, Is it not?????

Ron
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Old 09-28-2006, 10:00 AM   #38
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Now that is indeed impressive. Back to 1997, no less!!!

GS: Get A Clue!


Winniebago was one of the first. Take a look at what they provide online:

http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/Wiring.htm

http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/Plumbing.htm

http://www.winnebagoind.com/service/webcd.htm

Impressive, Is it not?????

Ron[/quote]
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Old 09-28-2006, 03:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaster1
My point in this is that GS might have been glad to give me the info, but seemed not to have it themselves.

I know there is a push throughout the industry to develop better documentation of the whole coach, because currently this is lacking just about everywhere, not just GS. GS could definitely pick up a competetive advantage by being among the first to offer this level of support, I think.

FWIW....
Well I have made that assertion before. And, if it is true, fess up. And, BTW, I have seen some schematics of a coach that was adifferent model than mine and based on my own research the wiring harness is very similar if not identical across many of the late model coaches of a particular class (A,C, etc).

As far as others not having that level of documentation, I beg to differ, go to the Winnebago and Alfa web sites and see the level of documentation you get online. Go to the Country Coach or Monaco sites and see the wealth of data you can find...then go to the GS site and all you will find is info dedicated to SELLING you a coach...except for FAQ section that is almost worthless unless you know exactly what you are looking for and can formulate the correct keywords.

So, from even just that 10 minute exercise...do you think GS is more interested in CS or Selling based on their web site alone?

Now, we all can go on and on about the companies below in terms of what we think of their product, but look at their commitment to owners with information.

http://www.winnebagoind.com/resources/manuals/

http://www.alfaleisure.com/downloads/manuals.html

http://www.holidayrambler.com/service/index.html

http://www.holidayrambler.com/service/faqs.html

Now after visiting all of those, visit:

http://www.gulfstreamcoach.com

Now what do YOU think?

I am sorry if it sounds like I am slamming GS, but sheez guys, get with the program. Start building your web site and CS as well as your cabinetry and you really will gain the support of each and every member of this forum!
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Old 09-28-2006, 03:58 PM   #40
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Very well put gsadmin!
If GS would only meet us halfway with CS everyone would have a lot better feeling about them.
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