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Old 04-19-2006, 09:19 PM   #1
50kw
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Default Gulfstream drawings not released

This is something you may know. Now confirmed.

I seems that my dealer is unable to complete the sales contract even though the Dealer Sales Manager, Dealer Owner, Sales person, Gulfstream Sales Manager signed off or said they would be available as part of the deal.

I was told by the dealer today that Gulf stream does not give the drawings to owners.

Any ideas what could be done? Since is part of the sales deal what do you think the drawings are worth? I think I am due a rebate for that part of the deal not delivered.

More later, as this develops.


Duncan
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Old 04-20-2006, 04:11 AM   #2
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Duncan, Ask the dealer to request them from Gulf Stream and have then sent to the dealership. Once they get them then you could get a copy from the dealership. Good luck in this venture.
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Old 04-20-2006, 12:54 PM   #3
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Duncan,

Interesting you should ask about those drawings. You are NOT going to get them. GS will forfeit the sale of a motor home rather than release AC wiring drawings, or piping schematics. There is a drawing of the DC wiring, specific to a particular model number, floating around, but you will have to be quite versed in AutoCad to even begin to view & print.

Our "GSadmin", myself, & several others on this forum were responsible for GS shutting down their own forum because we continued to push for drawings. The uprise so bothered GS management that rather than read negative feedback about their policy, they instead shut down the public feedback portion of their website.

There is more: This edict comes from the top itself (the Shea family). They believe (hold on - this would be laughable if not so pathetic) that their wiring is so magical & ahead of it's time, that the competition will do anything to get the drawings & copy them into their own product lines!!! In their mind, the wiring to the microwave, for example, is a trade secret. Can you beleive that?

But wait, there is even more: Their head electrical engineer, a really helpful guy, smart, conscientious, dedicated, long long term employee, responsible for all wiring of their RV lines & mobile home lines... is forbidden to release any drawings. He supposedly has them, just can't release them. He has stated to me that he has hearburn with the policy, but has no choice.

You can call & ask Terry for specific help & he will get back to you with the exact size, route, color, part number, etc, but he cannot give you a schematic.

And lastly, my dealer claims to have an equally difficult time getting documentation. Instead, they brag how they've figured everything out themselves & are the world's most renouned expert on Gulf Stream wiring. (Don't believe them for a second.)

My final recommendation would be to write (or personally visit at the factory) a Shea brother himself. Without phone numbers, here are the key players that I have been able identify:

Gulf Stream Management: P.O. Box 1005 Nappanee, Indiana 46550

1. Bob Berardinelli, Gulf Stream?s director of service
2. Brian Shea, president of Gulf Stream?s motorized division
3. Claude Donati, vice president of the motorized division
4. Dan Shea, President Gulf Stream Towables Division
5. Dan Hammons, Plant Manager Plant 51
6. John Stringer, National Sales Manager Plant 51 Towables
7. Jim Shea, president Fairmont Homes
8. Dan Miller, IS director for Gulf Stream Coach


Good Luck, report back if you get any action. Always remember, should you get anything, the company will consider any distribution as copyrite infringement & likely pursue legal recourse. They are that manic about the subject.
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:12 PM   #4
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FWIW, i just visited an RV dealership north of me the other day on the way back from a trip to the Dino Park in Ogden. I knew they carried Gulfstream before so i wanted to look at the latest and ask them about service since my dealership, LaMesa closed doors last year. The gentleman that helped me said that they recently dropped the Gulf Stream line for, get this, lack of support and documentation from the factory and for Gulf Stream refusing to pay warranty work to them on items that should have been covered. And, though most of you probably think I was leading in my questioning, i assure you i was not. I simply asked if I could see a Gulf Stream Class A and that is what he told me.

All I can say is sign my petition, get the word out, and have others do the same. As I have said many times before, overall I am happy with my purchase and the value, except for this documentation issue and few nits. But, the doc issue is HUGE!

The other thing I can recommend for all my GS brethren is contact all the RV rags and editors with this subject and lets try and get them to cover it. If enough of us email them, they will see it as news and probably make a story...think GS will listen then? I doubt it...
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:47 PM   #5
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When we first started looking at new motorhomes we thought we had a local dealer here in Harrisburg, PA, Grumbines RV. When we asked them about Gulf Streams they told us the same thing. They said they dropped Gulf Stream because of lack of support and warrenty issues. We found another GS dealer 2 hours away with a good reputation for working with GS and so far so good. The whole issue with poor factory support and warrenty repair issues very much concerned us. We chose to take a chance on GS anyway because we loved the model we got. The dealer has been great and I feel we will be ok as long as nothing major goes wrong. Then it maybe a hassel but I hope not. Happy Camping.
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Old 08-25-2006, 01:28 PM   #6
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anyone who at gs mgt. that thinks prospective buyers don't read forums like this prior to buying should think twice. i have been approved for financing and am now researching to see what people have to say about the gs support.

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Old 08-25-2006, 02:02 PM   #7
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"Our "GSadmin", myself, & several others on this forum were responsible for GS shutting down their own forum because we continued to push for drawings. The uprise so bothered GS management that rather than read negative feedback about their policy, they instead shut down the public feedback portion of their website."

Yep, It made a lot of sense shutting down a forum that was for the Gulf Streamers International RV Club and our activities. The forum was not even for service related issues, just for club activity.

Yep, made a lot of sense on both issues.

Ron
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Old 08-25-2006, 02:25 PM   #8
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Default sent this to gs

To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Web


Hello 58sales,

my name is of course mark brown, i am considering buying this weekend
a new 2007 Gulf Stream Tour Master T-44 W/3 Slides from a dealer in
Texas.

Below see the link for a Gulf Stream owners forum. I have read that
you do not provide paint codes and wiring diagrams for the rv's you
make and sell. This will have a negative impact on my spending
200,000.00 for your product and figured that your sales staff and
service staff might like to know that. I think more educated people
are researching reputations prior to making large purchases, more
today with the advent of the Internet. I will wait for a response.


http://www.gsowners.com

--
Thank You,
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Old 08-25-2006, 02:58 PM   #9
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Any coach builder that really wanted to crack the magic bullet in the wiring would simply buy one and strip and blueprint it......its done in the gaming software business daily.....

GS Management needs to wake up....As for the warranty issues......McClains in Oklahoma City told me they wouldn't warranty any GS they didn't sell because GS alledgedly a was slow pay.

My experience has been frustrating to date but I'm being attented to. I feel I'm doing my part in this relationship.
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Old 08-25-2006, 04:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: sent this to gs

Please post back here any response you get. All of us here are very interested in this.

Just so you all know, our petition on this subject is more than 75% complete towards its 200 signature goal. It is avery interesting read to see all of the comments people make on signing it. Somehow I think only one of two things is happening here, either the top dogs at GS stay completely off of the internet or they are arrogant enough to think their customer base current and potential will not be affected by this denial of information and stonewalling. Once we reach 200 signatures, I am not only going to email them to the top brass their, but I will be printing them and sending them registered mail as well.

Don't hold your breath though on any policy shift.

As always, I will tell you I love my coach, hate the support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markbrown.com
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Web


Hello 58sales,

my name is of course mark brown, i am considering buying this weekend
a new 2007 Gulf Stream Tour Master T-44 W/3 Slides from a dealer in
Texas.

Below see the link for a Gulf Stream owners forum. I have read that
you do not provide paint codes and wiring diagrams for the rv's you
make and sell. This will have a negative impact on my spending
200,000.00 for your product and figured that your sales staff and
service staff might like to know that. I think more educated people
are researching reputations prior to making large purchases, more
today with the advent of the Internet. I will wait for a response.


http://www.gsowners.com

--
Thank You,
Mark Brown
www.markbrown.com
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- Added Safe-T-Steer

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Old 08-26-2006, 11:38 PM   #11
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I must be one of the lucky ones. In December 2004, I purchased a used 1999 Sun Voyager Bus Diesel. In going through all the documentation I received with it, I had a complete set of Gulf Stream electrical schematics, somewhere around 80 pages (I think the pages are 11 X 16". Wish I had the Plumbing, Grey and Waste schematics also. Don't know how the previous owner got them, but I'm glad I do. Have had to use 2 times so far.
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Old 08-27-2006, 04:47 PM   #12
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poordevil, you have no idea how lucky you are to have those. Some others on this board with similar coaches may wish to share in your good fortune. If you ever have the ability to scan the more important sheets and post them, I am sure someone out there would be indebted.
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Old 08-28-2006, 01:12 PM   #13
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I used to be involved in the purchasing of production machinery for the company I retired from. We always negotiated a complete print & bill of material package in any machine purchase.

That usually cost us from 5% to 20% above of the cost of the machinery. But we were able to maintain the equipment and almost always had the spare parts on hand we felt had a high failure rate.

Print packages are expensive and they cut out the maker of the equipment and the suppliers of maintenance to maintain it since it allows the end user to find other suppliers and do their own maintenance.

As this applies to the RV Industry, providing complete prints to the buyer/owner could cut out the RV dealer's service department to a certain degree and also the manufacturer suppling some of the parts. With this thought in mind, maybe that is one of the reasons that Gulf Stream has maintained this policy on not releasing prints to the owners.

I realize that a lot of the RV dealers service is not up to par no matter what brand/make of RV. That is why I do most of the maintenance to our RV myself. Would I like to have complete wiring/plumbing prints, you bet.

Would I be willing to pay 5 to 20% more for the prints, as is done the manufacturing industry, NO way. It would not be cost effective.

Did you ever wonder why some dealers have a problem and others don't when dealing with any supplier/manufacturer? Makes we wonder where the real problem is.

Anyway, these are my thoughts,
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:41 PM   #14
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Ron, I have a feeling that your reasoning may be spot on for reluctance to release this information. Generally I feel that there could be three reasons (not really valid ones to me) to withold this info (or combonation of these three):

1. They want to keep more repair profits to themselves and their dealers. Although seemingly a logical practice, in the auto industry it was like this for years until court cases forced them to release (via sale) to the public their service manuals so that not only DIYers could do safe repairs but third party mechanics could as well.

2. The documentation is severely lacking. They might have really good documentation for general models or model years but not versions for every model/year combo. This may reflect negatively on their business.

3. Legal liability if someone uses their docs to perform a repair and then has a death or injury due to erroneous information printed in the documentation (limitations in the document itself or signed releases can prevent this one for the most part)

Anyway, like i have said many times, other top-tier RV manufacturers such as Alfa, Winnebago and others release incredible docs right from their web sites...I love my GS, but when I get the next one, my love for it will not supplant my need for good docs and if this is not yet resolved I am afraid my money will go elswhere.
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Old 08-28-2006, 06:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsadmin
Anyway, like i have said many times, other top-tier RV manufacturers such as Alfa, Winnebago and others release incredible docs right from their web sites...I love my GS, but when I get the next one, my love for it will not supplant my need for good docs and if this is not yet resolved I am afraid my money will go elswhere.
Well, in reality when we purchase our next RV, if we ever do, we will purchase the RV that we really want and fits our needs and lifestyle no matter what brand as long as the quality in the cabinets etc. is what we want. Not that the prints would not be important, if available. But I would not base my decision solely on that reason.

I have always gotten excellent, prompt responses from Gulf Stream along with great service. Being on our second GS RV, I must say that the present one had many more service issues than our first, but they have all been handled in a prompt matter by GS. Now the dealer is another matter, I don't want to get started on them.

I also agree that Gulf Stream needs to get on-board with the information world that everyone expects now. As a company it is behind many others in aspects of the information age, but they do build some great RV's.

Ron
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:52 AM   #16
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It's interesting how the beat goes on about drawings. The subject has a life of its own. Electrical schematics & plumbing routing diagrams (IMO) hardly constitute specially designed & machined parts. They are certainly not trade secrets. Also, there is not an item in a coach that isn't off-the-shelf from another manufacturer.

Just think how handy it would be for so many to know if their bathroom sink empties into the black water tank or the grey water tank; or what water is filtered, etc.

Just think how nice it'd be to know what circuits are on each breaker; where the A/V equipment connections run, hey, where the splitter resides for the TVs.

My dealer claimed a need to "keep trying connections" till they get the right ones for the transmission overdrive operation & indication! These were connections into the transmission ECM (electronic control module)! One wrong move & GS would have been waranteeing a thousand dollar computer to the dealership. Fortunately, I went ahead & accepted my coach with an inoperable overdrive. Then pulled a couple strings within GS to get the exact expected connection, including wire colors & connector positions. No experimenting,,, On the 1st try I had OD & a yellow light. & while I was under the dash, I found out why & corrected the inoperative fog lights that puzzled the experts.

I previously worked for a company that manufactured paper processing equipment. True, we NEVER sent out detail drawings of machined parts, but we did provide assembly drawings. Our customers HAD to be able to dissasemble/assemble & adjust the equipment. Not be able to machine the spare parts, just use them. Similarly, the customer was provided with every wire connection, wire size, wire color, junction box, switch detail & the manufacturer part number needed to replace bad items.

Gosh, I get emotional over this subject... Ha Ha Ha. I assure everyone, it is a loosing battle with GS. They have their corporate policy & that's that. To vent my frustration, I have pretty much traced out & accounted for every wire & device in my coach by myself.
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:06 AM   #17
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Ron, My main reason for having more documentation as mandatory (and i know others too that share it) is multifold. First, there are many aftermarket additions I would like to do (or have done to my coach), second, since I am very capable and able in areas of plumbing, electrical, mechanics, etc., after the warranty has expired, I prefer to do most work myself. This not only saves me money, but it also saves me time and hassle of shuttling my rig back and forth to the dealer. Finally, I want the docs so that when I am out in BFE with my RV, doing what you are supposed to do with your RV, and something goes wrong, I would prefer the local repair guy (that is prob not a GS shop) or myself to have as much documentation as possible to make a safe repair to things like lighting, electrical, battery isolation, etc.

Ron, you may have the luxury of excess time and money such that the above does not affect you. If I (or others) was also similarly blessed, I (we) too would only concern myself with things such as the floorplan, cabinetry, etc. I am not being cynical here...just merely pointing out that everyones life circumstances are not the same.
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ82much
Gosh, I get emotional over this subject... Ha Ha Ha. I assure everyone, it is a loosing battle with GS. They have their corporate policy & that's that. To vent my frustration, I have pretty much traced out & accounted for every wire & device in my coach by myself.
C'mon man, don't give up the fight! Don't be so apathetic! My last hoorah on this subject will be when I get my 200 names and send them certified mail to the "family". If that goes nowhere than at least I did my best for the cause!
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:13 AM   #19
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You know I have been thinking about the many RV owners that I have met over the years. I found out the the biggest percentage do not even read the manuals that come with their RV's or do they do any of their own repairs.

Most of them could care less where the wires ran or connections are or what color wire was used to power the AV eqiupment.
Many of them with a tool in their hands would be dangerous.

They are the ones that are always asking you questions in the campground, you know what I mean, we have all ran into them.

Reminds of the guy I ran into a few years ago that was asking me about our satellite system. Said his TV couldn't get a good picture at all off the antenna. I ran our TV antenna up and showed him the good picture we could get off it, 6 different channels.

Asked me if I would take a look at his. I did and he was right, terrible picture. I looked at the plate where the TV wire was connected and noticed the light was not on for the booster, switched it on and right away got a terrific picture.

He'd had the RV for three years and never turned the switch on for the booster, said he never knew about it. But did remember something the dealers service dept. telling each time to turn on when wanting to use the TV. Guess he had it in several times for this problem and they kept telling him it was okay. Claims I was the first to show him how to turn it on.

I have found out that asking questions from knowledgeable techs is a great asset. Also, never let a dealer rush you through a PDI on purchase. Our first Gulf Stream was purchased from Martinsburg RV in PA, our PDI lasted for a couple of hours going thru all the systems and functions, I asked questions, MANY questions. Then they had us spend the night in their lot to make everything worked as it should. Checked with us the next morning and took care of the two things that were not right, the latches for the pivot on the drivers and passenger seats were not hooked up. They had done a terrific PDI, wish I had purchased our second GS from them, I should have.

Ron
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:34 AM   #20
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Ron, you are so right that many (if not most) that RV would not know what to do with a set of electrical schematics. My mother is one such person. She full-times in a Safari Sahara. Once or twice a year she comes by my place in UT with her coach to visit and have "fix-its" done. She is on a VERY fixed income and has no means to spend $100+/hr. to a shop. And, she cannot do the work herself. But, you know what, when she comes out to my place and has a problem, and I start to look at the issue, she usually comes out with a stack of paper and says "will this help" sure enough it is some schematic or detailed information on the coach or one of its systems. Even when she is on the road, many of the places she stays (like Yuma, AZ) have "work camper handymen" that are well versed in RVs and help her out...again, she hands them docs and she feels much better knowing they don't have to poke around or "keep trying connections".

As I said before, its not only for the DIYer to have as much documentation as possible on your Rig!
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- Added Safe-T-Steer

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